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one who forms opinions on the basis of reason, independently of tradition, authority, or established belief; one who doubts or denies religious dogma
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theres a huge difference between adoration and veneration. read up about it 🙂
checkout this cartoon link:
http://www.reverendfun.com/?date=20070928
Why talk thru a salesperson, or the secretary? Go straight to the Manager!
Jesus when asked how to talk to God, He told them first of all who to talk-to: "Our Father".
Too bad for you atheists (and the likes) trying to poke fun on us who are related with the almighty God. I wonder who you talk-to when you are in a fox hole trying to dodge the bullets and bombs life is shooting at you, do you pray, "Dear Batman…?". Or maybe, "Zeus Mariosep." As a former military man (USN), I've often heard the phrase – "There's no atheist in foxholes." Being personally related with God beats getting assistance from Superman or the whole Justice League. When life hits me hard I ask for help from a Higher Power – I call 'My Father'. Too bad for all of you atheist out there. You've got NOBODY.
@reallythinkingfreely (really?)
I'm thinking your defending Christianity or Catholicism then? Because if you didn't know Zeus (in your quip "Zeus Mariosep") is also a god. In fact, people also pray to "Mariosep" which is just a portmanteau of "Maria" and "Joseph", in case again you didn't know. 🙂
It's really hard to remove the knee jerk reaction of calling out to someone of higher authority than us, when we're in trouble. Some big, tough men for example, call instead their mommies, some call an invisible stalker such as the Judeo-Christian god, when in trouble (or in a foxhole as you put it). It's really hard to remove that especially when you grew up being indoctrinated in all that mumbo-jumbo. This is similar to how people react quickly when say, in a fire, some just freeze and can't do anything, while others become more alert.
We have nobody you say? That's weird, since I got my brother, my sister, my friends, relatives, parents, even our dogs and cats. 🙂
@f241vc15 I admire your consistency with your religion's idol -F nietzsche, when he died all he had were his mom and sister. No God. No hope. INSANE.
In Christ, I have higher reason/purpose for living. I have no fear of dying. I am confident of my future, eternally.
Nietzsche's dead, Christ is alive.
@reallythinkingfreely
Religion? What religion? The only one in this discussion who has a religion, as the dictionary meaning of the word gives it, seems to be you mi amigo.
Sure, Christ is alive now, but before that, he died. So coming back from the dead, that makes one a zombie.
To all sci-fi and comic book (DC/Marvel) aficionados here:
http://f241vc15.wordpress.com/2009/12/15/things-i…
😉
@Ram
Hehe nice share on DC and mono/polytheism Highball. 🙂
After all, Zauriel is an angel, presumably from the Judeo-Christian story books. 😉
about Zauriel and DC, the God there is definitely Judeo-Christian inspired. Though an interesting twist there would be when he was kicked out of a church by a nun because of blasphemy. He was in human form and was arguing that God had no gender so it was inappropriate to use the Him pronoun. Funny scene when a nun is shouting blasphemy at an angel of god. LOL
hehe that is a pretty funny and ironic scene. 🙂
An angel getting shouted at for blasphemy. Sounds to me like Zauriel's heading for the way of Lucifer. 😉
What comic/story line did that happen btw?
That was in JLA secret files and origins… there was a follow up from the nun LOL
Zauriel: It's true, I swear it…
Nun: BLASPHEMER.. angels don't swear
Zauriel: ?! who told you that?
Nun: It is WRITTEN!
Zauriel: Written where?!
@ramonster
That dialog is hilarious. 😀
I should read that comic sometime soon. Thanks for sharing. 🙂
Hehehe… Tamang tama, right now i'm re-reading JLA Day of Judgment storyline (when Hal Jordan became the Spectre). In the dialogues i see a parallelism here on how monotheist Christianity discriminates against polytheism:
Conversation between Superman, Wonder Woman and Zauriel:
Zauriel: Unless we traverse the divine plane itself… only there we may contact Corrigan's soul
Superman: Then there we must go. I suggest you lead the mission, my friend…
Wonder Woman: I'll go to. I've been to Olympus… I've some experience with the divine.
Zauriel: Hmph. I'd hardly call Olympus divine…
Conversation between Mr. Miracle and Zauriel:
Mr. Miracle: Hmm, let me have a look at that clasp. I may only be a New God, but I have some experience with locks.
Zauriel: A new god? Unlikely Mr. Miracle, but thanks nonetheless.
@underhill
Nicely put.
@Ram
Hehe I hear you amigo. I'm still generally more of a DC fan than a Marvel fan. Why, you also have polytheism there with the Greek gods in Wonder Woman and the New Gods created by Jack Kirby. 😉
Too much Marvel talk, DC forever!!!
@underhill
Why would a supreme being like their god, need messengers to hear the people's prayers and pleas? Not so omniscient anymore? Lack of bandwidth? 🙂
@f241vc15
My thoughts exactly. Probably millions of people (or even billions) simultaneously praying has somewhat degraded god's "quality of service", think of it as some form of outsourcing. 😀
But then again, to raise such argument would indeed question its/his/her omnipotence.
I am fazed how the Christian followers try to justify themselves to the point that nothing makes sense and these breed more questions than the ones they answer. The responses usually are crafted/fashioned in such a way that they satisfy their "needy-ness" without ever giving a pause to think the validity of these claims.
On a probably irrelevant side note, I personally had come to encounter some of what I can consider as an extremist Christian believer.
According to the self-professed believer, the belief in the saints and of the virgin Mary is not, in itself, polytheism. Praying to any of them is more like asking a "messenger" of the supreme being to deliver the "message/plea". Thus, there is still one god, with plenty of messengers to go around. (Hmm, think of a star-topology)
Any thoughts on this?
@Gabriel
Complicated is one sure and good way of putting it. 🙂 Again, please see our comments regarding the semantics of veneration, adoration, and worship.
@Aldrin
Noted. I emphasized modern because how can Catholicism be referred to as "modern" when it doesn't even recognize the LGBT? Or contraception for that matter.
I never new Alex Skarsgard until now. Facially, he does seem fit to take the role of the thunder god. But actually my first pick was Triple H (pro wrestler). He had the face, the height, and the body/build. But perhaps not the acting skills though.
@Francis: Arguably, not only modern polytheistic communities but also ancient ones.
…
I agree that a lot of Christianity is actually pre-Christian. No culture exists in a vacuum. (I use the word 'culture' since the concept of religion separate from greater culture was unknown to the pre-Christian ancients.) Early Judaism itself was largely polytheistic. After all, it is an ethnic 'religion' just like Shinto and Hinduism. Eventually, some shifted to henotheism; others to monotheism — the latter giving way to the first 'religious' wars in history. They started the concept of 'otherness'.
I also agree that, to common folk, differences between veneration and adoration; adoration and worship are negligible. Who cares, yeah? As long as your prayers get 'answered'.
…
Excited to see Thor, as well. Weeeee! It would've been nice to cast Alex Skarsgard as Thor, though. 🙂
the belief of the holy Trinity is not a polytheistic belief, as the veneration of saints. Surely Christians have their complicated system of belief in monotheism.
Love the post by the way.
Reminds me of TV show, a comedy, talk show format back when we had Star TV in Sky Cable.
Anyways they had this guest who was Irish. So one of the host who plays grandma (the entire cast was suppose to be a family, an Indian family). So she says, 'you know your country and mine are very much alike, India and Ireland. you have many gods like we do'.
The lead character/host who plays the son, 'grandma c'mon those are not gods they call them saints'. hahahaha
@igme
Wow a Thor fan too huh? Yeah I used to be more of a buy it when I see it fan. I also love those 60s and 70s Marvel cartoons. Everyone sing with me now: "When Captain America throws his mighty shield, all those who chose to oppose his shield all yield! With the Red and the White and the Blue…" 😀
Truly Classic.
Nice share on the comedy show btw. 😀 hehe. India and Ireland do seem to have more "similarities" than most of us realize. 😀
@f241vc15, Igme – Hope they don't have to cgi his muscles. Also hope Nat Portman doesn't come across whiny like she was in Episode III. lol. I'm pretty sure it will be worth seeing.
Were we also discussing polytheism? There is so much paganism in modern day religion – particularly catholicism – that it has to amount to polytheism. So fundamentally speaking, it seems a small departure from the other 'isms' the world has come to know.
Twin-skies clarified the catholic position well, though. The problem with many catholic followers, however, is that they have a hard time drawing the line between veneration and worship. To me, the Church kind of encourages that behavior.
@theSN
I surely hope they don't do CGI muscles, otherwise they should do it as good as the people who made the CGI muscles in 300. Oh yeah, Jane Foster will be portrayed by Portman. She did however do a relatively good job in my opinion in V For Vendetta. Hope to see a strong performance like that in the Thor movie.
A lot of Polytheism and Paganism in our "modern" world, I quite think so. What with the virgin birth, Dec 25th birth, and other pagan-sourced activities in the "modern" Catholic church to name a few.
As Romeo and I pointed out, the words veneration and worship are entangled in a semantic web, because they seem to us (or to me at least) to be quite the same. Perhaps more sophisticated theologians can shed more light on the matter though.
CGI muscles? that will suck big time. you know brad pitt in Troy kinda fits the bill for me..physically at least…. I can't imagine thor's manner of speech if you still need it. or maybe he can speak in a manner more contemporary.
@igme
😀
Yeah actually Brad Pitt was one of the actors who was rumored to play the Odinson years back, when the Thor movie was just being entertained. Brad Pitt has the looks and the body build, though perhaps not the height.
Oh and for you polytheists and Thor fans, I've read that the Odinson won't have a human avatar (i.e. no Donald Blake or what have you). So, that leaves a very likely scenario where the Odinson in the movie will be an amalgamation of the original Thor and Thor in the Ultimates <a href="http://(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Thor)” target=”_blank”>(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Thor) who is more modern in speech (just a little) and is more like an environmental hippie.
Oh goody goody. 🙂
I hope Loki will appear as her hot female version 😀
oops to many "real"s there .. heehee
in reality people really including me couldn't tell the difference between veneration, adoration, and worship. it all seems just symantics to me ..
@Romeo
I quite agree with you, as I mentioned above/earlier.
How can one gauge one's amount of worship/adoration/veneration to one saint versus say, the virgin Mary or Jesus? Amount of money you spend in their name? The number of hours you spend praying to that blessed being?
hi! I'm a Christian but I don't pray to saints or Mary. I don't even think they should be prayed to in the first place. They may be blessed, but they can't answer our prayers.
LOOOVE your take on the RH bill (listened to the whole thing on RockEd Radio). I am so behind you.
You must be looking forward to the movie as well! I think its slated for a May 2011 release, and if you haven't updated yourself on that project yet, it should make for some interesting reading. I'm prayin it decently approaches the way he's portrayed in the marvel comic series. Always nice to come across another Thor fan.
Regarding Christs instrument of death (crucifix), some here may find this interesting as well –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_or_stake_as_gi…
Oh I am, I am. 🙂 Didn't really expect Chris Hemsworth to helm the role of the Odinson, but he's got the looks I think. All he needs now is to really bulk up and don some golden locks. 🙂
I'm thinking it will be quite good, though perhaps not so close to Thor in the comics (which isn't too bad, take a look at the Iron Man movie). Marvel Studios prides themselves with topnotch superhero movies like The Incredible Hulk and Iron Man.
I used to buy Thor comics back in the early 90s. Dunno if you can call it collecting cause I don't remember getting successive issues. I am more of a buy it when I see it then, and Thor I wanted to see more than the rest. The others wanted Wolverine.
And I eagerly watched that half comic half cartoon of a TV show on Marvel. Remember that, with Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk, Thor, and Submariner I think. Loved it so much I may have sung those intros a few times.
So here's to 2011, awwww a year a half to go. 🙂
Polytheism all the way. Take Thor and Christ. One kicks ass with an Odinforce imbued hammer, the other got nailed to a stake with a hammer. Since we are pushing on a string with both accounts, why not opt for the son of Odin?
That kid in the comic makes a decent enough point. Even modern day christians are divided about the nature of God. If Jesus and his father are indeed two separate entities, they may reject the worship of those who view them as a triad.
@Aldrin
If you check my original post, I got the image from the friendly atheist's site (Mr. Mehta).
@wanderer
Nice comic on the not so apparent inherent polytheism of Christianity no? 🙂
@twin-skies
A lot of Christians I'd dare say, may not 'worship' saints as they do their God, but practically speaking how do you gauge worship? The number of nice words and adorations you use? The amount of charity money you donate?
As can be seen from the comic, the girl, and presumably a significant number of Christians even including the late Pope John Paul II, prayed to saints. To make matters even worst, Christians can also pray to the virgin Mary, Holy Ghost etc. In fact, if canonization continues, Catholicism just might beat Hinduism with the number of beings a Catholic can pray to.
@theSN
I hear you. I'm quite a fan of Thor, especially the Marvel comics version of Thor. 🙂
Compared to being hammered onto a wooden cross/beam, I'd very much rather have the Odinson's power.
Have at thee! 🙂
He he galing!
@Francis:
No sir, I amn't. 😀
I agree that many Christians think that way. They forget that the 'modern' liberties they enjoy were first formulated by these same 'archaic' polytheists. A world ruled by monotheism? That's Taliban-run Afghanistan, man.
I'd like to clarify, though, that polytheism is more than having 'multiple deities'. More than that, it's the outlook; the perspective. Most polytheists see the universe as a place full of diversity; filled with moving powers all deserving of human awe. Whether these powers care about humans or not, is left to the individual to interpret for himself. But no doubt (in a polytheistic mindset), they are awesome and awe-full, and deserve our fellowship.
Sure, no problem. But you're not a Christian are you? 🙂
The problem I think is a lot of Christians denounce polytheism as an archaic form of religion, whereas if you look closely to their belief system, they turn out to be polytheists among other things.
Another thing is they seem to be cannibals, though perhaps not in the literal sense. 🙂
Hey, I'm a polytheist. 😉
http://www.aheathensday.com/2009/10/solution-to-p…
@twin skies
Yes I think that's how I was taught as well. Although I can't say for certain if that's how it is in other Christian sects/denominations.
@aldrin
Good for you then. 🙂
Thanks also for the brief but enlightening take on modern (?) polytheism.
Ay, hindi ko nabasa 'yung caption sa baba. 😛
PS: The image is familiar, I think may have replied to it (on another blog) in the past.
If I recall my religion classes correctly, we were taught to venerate, that is, to honor the saints, Mary, and everybody else below God in the heirarchy.
Worship itself was reserved for God.