If there’s one thing I like about my industry is that the issue of gender hardly comes up. Sure, there was this disastrous “IT pageant” some people tried to organize a few years ago, but then the outraged reactions to it only serve to reinforce my point. I’ve never been referred to as a “lady programmer” or “lady IT consultant”. If anyone were ever called that, our first reaction would probably be “Weird, I’ve never heard of the Lady programming language”.
So what’s with the “lady dentists”? And “lady doctors”? The odd thing is that it’s what they seem to be calling themselves. They’re on the signs at clinics and offices, meaning these doctors and dentists had them put up themselves. Then there was this news item about how during one of the recent typhoons, a gentleman security guard saved a woman from a parking lot which was flooding, and the news item kept referring to her as a “lady doctor”. Oh, no, wait, it was just a security guard — apparently we don’t attach “gentleman” to occupational titles.
Maybe I’m just an ignorant techie here. Maybe the idea of women in the medical profession is something so rare and special that it’s important to note that these people got their degrees and practiced their profession despite — gasp! — not having a penis. Maybe it’s important to let potential patients know that these are “lady dentists”, in case they need to have a dental procedure that can only be done with boobs.
Or maybe we still just haven’t gotten over the fact that women can do the same things that men can. That our biological plumbing doesn’t have anything to do with our jobs. Sure, I can understand that when it comes to medical care, some people do have a gender preference. For instance, some women would prefer female OBGYNs. But when we label doctors as either female or not, we are basically making a person’s sex a qualification, like a PhD or a diploma from a certain university. And it’s not. A person’s sex is something that’s pretty much determined before that person is born. It’s not something he or she studied for, or spent hours practicing and perfecting.
And while we’re at it, enough with those “preferably male” descriptions in job ads. Unless it’s an ad for a dildo model, you’re just discriminating against qualified women. You might as well include in the job ad “Our company is run by misogynistic pricks.”
A while back, I came across a job ad for a web programmer, “preferably gay”. I’m not kidding. The theory a friend of mine came up with was that it was for a gay porn website. But that’s another story for another blog post.
Tania writes about stuff over at The Entropy Blog.
Wes: Not the same thing, Wes. Saying that a chef is sexy has nothing to do with sexism. Implying differences between male and female professionals because of gender is.
I did see those ads for the Sexy Chef,though. Did Rachel Alejandro sue Survivor? I don't think she really has a case (I'm no lawyer, though). You're right, if you're a chef and you're sexy, you're technically a sexy chef 🙂
Here's more "food for thought", hehe… take the case of Rachel Alejandro's catering business is named "The Sexy Chef", now being sexy has no connection to cooking good food in much the same way being a hot doctor has no relation to your technical skills. Obviously, she's using her sex appeal as a marketing tool, appearing half-dressed most of the time her food ads even though you probably won't get a body like hers by scarfing down her chow. The more you like her food, the more you eat, the bigger you'll get, and the farther away you'll get to looking like her.
There was an incident before where she went all overprotective of the moniker that when Mika, a contestant for Survivor Philippines, described herself as "a sexy chef" on her writeup, she went amok, fuming that Mika stole her company name and that she doesn't have the right to use the tagline even though she technically is also sexy and is a chef 🙂
What's interesting here overall is that when someone asserts that 'men and women should be treated equally', people come out from the woodwork and say 'men and women should be treated differently because THEY ARE DIFFERENT (biologically/emotionally/chemically/whathaveyou)'.
As a woman who of course wants to be treated fairly, I still don't know if 'fairly' means eradicating differences and not seeing gender, or celebrating the differences without disenfranchising one or the other. People all over are still having arguments over this. It has widespread implications – do we eliminate gender categories in the Olympics? Do we allow women to serve in combat in the military? Do we outlaw gender identifiers in service/professional advertisements? Do we stop opening doors and pulling chairs for women? These issues are still far from being resolved. I will admit that I don't have a firm position for either side of the spectrum; maybe the solution lies somewhere in between.
@Tania
I just think that being called a lady is the least of our problems in terms of discrimination. I also think that in the medical profession, despite women riding on the lady vs not lady label to get more patients, women in that profession seem to not get as discriminated against as in other professions. With that I mean that a lot of women are in top positions in hospitals across the country. Of course, there are certain gender preferences when it comes to certain specialties.. however, it seems to me that in terms of pay scale, selection in top med programs, opportunities in hospitals, etc. I have not heard of discrimination in those fronts from female doctors I know who have been able to exceed expectations in the medical profession despite being women.
Don't get me wrong, we are on the same side here (I think). I just don't have anything against being called a lady or calling yourself a woman. I don't see what other expectations are made by saying you're a woman either. It's in your name in your clinic, whether you say "lady" or not. It can be two things – I a statement of fact, period, or maybe meant to imply something else, like an added benefit. I don't see it as the latter, honestly.
I agree that discrimination against women is a major thing for society to overcome. I just don't see in in the lady example.
@Frank – someone once replied verbatim the same as you, but I can’t remember where. there are posts here I consider jewels, and it’s nice to view them in a different facet. Sometimes, getting a firm grasp on reality requires ditching the political correctness and to me, this is what freethinking is all about. we are individualists, not conformists, yes? even if you don’t agree with me, at least you see an original view. J
Tania does have a good point. to stay competitive, businesses must evolve into entities that serve customers better, and since female doctors are in demand or struggling in a new practice, they may choose a method of promoting themselves without a moments concern for what is most appropriate. Seems tacky, but that approach probably works- to the detriment of male physicians in key disciplines who compete for the same subset of patients.
At the end of the equation though, it comes down to reputation and quality of health care. If I had a daughter who needed ovarian surgery or a breast mass excision, I would certainly opt for an experienced male doctor over a female physician with no reputation. most other people would choose similarly. In short, it’s a nice little trick to try to get business, but it may not result in patient growth the way they anticipate. It’s reputations and referrals that ultimately drive successful practices in health care, as cut-throat environments like managed care in the U.S have demonstrated over the last decade. It should all come down to – Male, female, it doesn’t matter… who can give me the best quality care at an acceptable price?
I think that the label "lady" when describing doctors or other professions in this case is just a mere descriptor of gender; I don't necessarily think it was meant as a discriminatory thing. I also know some female doctors and dentists and I've never heard them cry foul with regards to discrimination.
Discrimination in the employment situation goes several ways here in the Philippines – males, females, gays, pregnant people, old people, non-Catholics/Christians are all affected by the "preferably (X)" hiring practice. I even sometimes think that, based on my observation, women have the upper hand as a lot of jobs I see prefer females (with pleasing personalities, of course).
That said, some of the comments generated by the entry seem to be even more discriminatory than the situations described in the entry.
@Sinistersparks:
So, if, say, atheists don't complain about how they're discriminated against, does that mean there's no discrimination going on? If gays don't complain about being called names, then everything's ok?
Female doctors/dentists are clearly not complaining about discrimination — that's my point. They themselves encourage the whole "lady doctors/dentist" bullshit. What I'm saying is that this kind of marketing of oneself *fosters* discrimination, because it promotes unfair standards on women. It's not fair that we're expected to be nice and friendly just because we're women — we should be able to just be ourselves. If I'm a doctor and I insult my patients, that doesn't make me a bad woman, it makes me a bad doctor. When we do our jobs, we ought to be judged as lawyers, doctors, programmers — not as women.
I would never tell a potential client, "Hire me because I'm female!" Because that would be disrespectful to myself as a woman, and disrespectful to myself as a professional.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say that theSN speaks for himself. =)
Good morning FilFree comrades! This is the active thread of the week, i presume? This topic is a nice diversion from religion and atheism, so maybe another comment will keep the contemplative-looking-Tania's topic in play for awhile.
"A while back, I came across a job ad for a web programmer, preferably gay”. I’m not kidding"
You better believe it Arpa chick, there are employers out there who target homo's because they demonstrate a higher work productivity and/or are more effective than straight guys in a particular field. They may scuttle the hormonal balance within the office, but there's nothing like a faggot when it comes to energizing a sales team or staying on top of collections. Since we peeps are freethinkers here (and empowered with brutal honesty), i'd be the first to disclose my preference for a female with a massive rack or nice ass (work ethic notwithstanding) to lift morale around the office, while a few over-achieving gays with an inferiority complex pick up the slack for everyone else. It's all about balance and the bottom line, and a few well-placed genders/looks in key positions can accomplish that.
"So what’s with the “lady dentists”? And “lady doctors”? The odd thing is that it’s what they seem to be calling themselves"
You should realize that males often seek out female professionals because we are suckers for chicks in uniform. Besides, its a poor assumption that men are better than women at anything other than sports, and even with that, females seem to be closing the gap quickly. I'd draft Serena Williams as fullback to anchor my power I offense any day over some sissy like Kevin Mack of the Cleveland Browns. In sports like football, females may not be physically superior to males, but pitting them scantily clad against each other would trounce the viewership of a televised WAC football game on any given Saturday afternoon. ‘Lady football player’ is ripe for google search exploitation, and by ’football player’ I mean the american variety, so for blog traffic purposes someone may want to consider that.
Past that, are female better professors than men? Perhaps, and they are usually better to look at. Dentists? A female pair of eyes staring down at your mouth for an hour make up for any discomfort, so yes. A female surgeon? Who better, when it comes to procedures like an orchiectomy, penile prosthesis implant or penile enlargement? There are no hard and fast rules in how people market themselves professionally. Most often, advertising the fact that you are female is better for business in almost every discipline because dudes crave female company however they can get it. Samefaggotry aside, I think the straight guys have an appreciation for what I’m getting at here.
Until your next post, keep plugging along and try not to let your pretty little head get hung up over the self-promulgation of a few business savvy women, because men actually dig it. We refuse to admit, yet simultaneously won’t deny, that women rule the world.
Frank: Oh,these repressed men have nothing against gender equality. They just want women to be punished for having sex, hence their opposition to the RH bill. But they are totally for gender equality — they say so themselves! Which is why to climb the ranks of power in their organization, you are required to have a penis.
@cookiemonster – I think what tania was saying was that she (and I) have not noticed discrimination of any sort in the IT field. so I'm curious as to what discrimination you're talking about.
@tania – yup, we should have those same anti-discriminatory laws here. But wait.. a Bill for gender equality? Sounds like something a group of old repressed men in robes and funny hats would love to lobby against.
Hmm…with regard to the IT field, I think that the discrimination came after the fact. For some reason, the information technology sector tends to attract a disproportionate number of males (as compared to females), which gave everyone else the notion that women are being discriminated upon becoming programmers (hence, the curiosity that is "lady programmers").
Not that women were barred or discouraged from taking up IT. Historically, computer science was a branch of mathematics (and to some extent, physics) which, in itself, is notoriously dominated by men. (And still, a woman, Lady Ada Lovelace [Lord Byron's daughter from one of his flings] is credited as the first programmer.) Among professionals in those fields (math, physics, IT), I don't think there are big issues on #1.why the women are in those fields, or #2.why there are very few of them. I remember that in my college, there were slightly more girls than boys under the computer science dept. (roughly 60-65% of the entire graduating batch, I think). And on top of that, very few graduates took up non-programming/non-analyst jobs, including the girls.
Having been in the field for a good number of years, the "discrimination", from what I understand, only comes from people outside the IT industry. I would understand how such stereotypes may have formed: almost all fictional/cinematic depiction of hackers and programmers have to be the typical nerdy guys, and the media continues to play up this image of the IT industry. Unless mass media stops treating women in the IT field as a mere curiosity, as a bit of trivia, it will be very, very hard to convince people that there's absolutely nothing wrong or nothing "unusual" with "lady programmers".
One pertinent question that we may want to ask is why few females choose to take up careers in IT (and, well, math, physics and engineering), even if we remove the issue about perceived or actual sexual discrimination. But I think that was already the subject of a number of surveys and refereed journal papers 😛
With regard to medicine and other professions, I can't say and I don't give a damn. I don't care if my doctor is male or female, as long as he/she gives what I need and he/she does the job I expect from him/her 🙂
Romeo, Frank: We really ought to have stricter laws when it comes to discrimination when hiring. Of course, if a person wants a doctor who's male, or white, or from a particular university, that's his/her choice. Let's just not institutionalize discrimination, because that's bad for everyone.
wes: That's totally sexist! Hot male dentists should advertise, too.
(Seriously, they should. I used to go to this dentist because his son — who also worked in that clinic — was hot.)
even better if they advertise themselves as "hot lady dentists" 🙂
personally, its one of my criteria for choosing a dental clinic at random. Having a nice rack to stare into while she leans over to peer into your mouth helps soothe patient anxiety, y'know.
Excellent post. =) Dental procedures that can only be done with boobs, lol!
I understand that in at least some US states, it is illegal to post discriminatory ads based on even gender and age. I know an American who was hiring in the Philippines mentioned how they couldn't do the same things we do with ads, e.g. "Wanted: Secretary, 18-22 years old, female."
Though there are some things one gender does better than another, I think it's beside the point when it comes to job discrimination, so for the most part I agree with "our biological plumbing doesn’t have anything to do with our jobs". I think half of the time it's simply a preferential thing; some people like working with one gender over the other. The other half of the time it's gender bias, as you mentioned, plain and simple; people go for a gender they feel is more suited to the job they want done.
Which, I agree, is stupid, and these "Lady Dentists" take advantage of this stupidity.
i wonder if it is possible to make it illegal to discriminate based on sex, age, religion, and gender.
Well, I was just guessing why they would call themselves "lady doctors" coz the rarity argument didn't hold for me. I don't want a motherly doctor as well. Yep, none of the doctors I've met have been motherly. I also haven't met any doctors calling themselves lady doctors so I don't know what they are like. So you don't think the reason they call themselves that and putting them on the sign is for marketing?
"The fact that you brought this up speaks to the societal pressure most people put on women to be “nice”, which men do not have to deal with"
I didn't mean that. But I do have the impression that any person calling themselves a "lady" or a "gentleman" is trying to project a "nice" image. Just to be clear, I'm not denying that there's a societal pressure for women to be "nice".
"but that doesn't make them a better doctor over the other"
We are on the same page on this, you know that right? I think I made that explicit in my comment. That in the end it's the skills we have that matters, not the gender. People should not hire based on gender. I'm only saying the inherent advantages/disadvantages are something we deal with. And there are jobs that are more difficult for one gender to learn to do, but people can of course adapt. So my point is that gender affects how we learn the skills needed to do certain jobs. That's why I think it has something to do with our jobs. But again, how well we do our jobs in the end doesn't depend on gender, but on how we developed our skills. Btw, I've read that even jobs that are supposedly more difficult for men to do are still male dominated. So you're right, it's not fair.
Honestly, I think there's nothing wrong with "Lady Doctor" labels on some practices/clinics. that way they can attract potential new patients who prefer being treated by women doctors rather than men, aside from potential new patients who wouldn't care about the gender. Maybe its more on advertisement than qualification. Because in this country for sure gender in more ways than one is significant.
With our profession (yeah i'm in the I.T. field as well) we are dealing with codes and we interact with machines. Not humans. Doctors, nurses, tellers, lawyers, people in the customer service field are dealing with humans directly and so we can't really compare them to us.
Just my thoughts.
"women in the medical profession is something so rare"
Well, it's also rare in the IT industry so probably not because of that. Maybe the reason that some doctors or dentists market themselves with the 'lady' prefix is to project a motherly, caring image as opposed to a cold doctor. I don't see that as a marketing advantage in the IT industry.
"That our biological plumbing doesn’t have anything to do with our jobs"
I don't agree with this. Women can do the same things that men can, true. Hiring should not discriminate by gender. The skills and personality of the individual should be checked. But our biological plumbing does have something to do with our jobs. Studies have shown that women and men's brains work differently. It doesn't mean one gender can't do a certain job, but it does mean we'll have to find ways to deal with our inherent advantages/disadvantages. In the end, it's the skills we have developed that matters.
Mikong: Yes, brains of men and women may work differently, but that does not make one a better doctor over the other. It has to do with the person's experience, dedication, talent and work ethic. And from what I know, female doctors did not get into medicine to "mother" their patients. They became doctors to take care of the sick, make diagnoses, perform life-saving surgery. And perpetuating the stereotype of women having to be "motherly" forces an unfair standard on female doctors. If male doctors aren't expected to be motherly, then women doctors shouldn't be either. And just because a doctor isn't "motherly", it doesn't mean he or she is a cold uncaring person. The fact that you brought this up speaks to the societal pressure most people put on women to be "nice", which men do not have to deal with. That if a woman isn't friendly and accommodating, she's automatically a bitch. If she's not "motherly", she's cold and uncaring. She can't just be a person the way men can. And apparently, she can't just be a doctor the way men can — she's expected to be "motherly" as well. Like I said, it's not fair.
By the way, I've seen a lot of doctors, both male and female, and none of them have been "motherly". They're just nice people who were competent at their jobs and wanted to make me better. I don't know about you, but I would find being "mothered" by a virtual stranger rather creepy.