God refers to a supreme being or a divine being.
Whether supreme beings or divine beings exist does not matter to me.
I live according to my own sense of right or wrong,
learning from experiences of past successes and past mistakes,
and any reward or punishment I may gain
are the results of the consequences of my acts,
and not because I prayed for a blessing or angered some god.
If a miracle were to happen in my life,
I would take it as a significant coincidence
rather than a sign of God’s existence.
For I know that miracles happen everyday,
to people of different faiths and values,
regardless of whether they pray.
If a great disaster were to mess me up
and make me believe in utter hell,
I would not blame God for it
or assume that his wrath is upon me.
I would not ask for his help and guidance,
nor would I believe that he would give it.
Instead, I will believe in myself,
in my strength to overcome this darkness,
and understand the weaknesses in me
that allowed it to happen in the first place.
I will aim to learn from this experience,
and strive to forgive myself
and the others who may have helped caused it.
And if I do not have the strength to forgive them,
I will keep in mind that bitterness
is a heavy thing to carry.
God, if he exists,
will not be bothered by what I do,
will not be collecting on my prayers,
will not be offended by my blasphemies.
But somehow, I cannot help but feel
that if he exists, he will
be somewhat proud of me.
This could have ended sooner in the first two lines:
“God refers to a supreme being or a divine being.
Whether supreme beings or divine beings exist does not matter to me.”
Why bother in “defining” God which has nothing to do with your life? Well, in fairness, I read your piece in its entirety. An intriguing remark of Jean Paul Sartre in “Existentialism Is a Humanism” reminds me of your stand here: “Even if God existed, that would make no difference.”
Btw, you did not define God here. You simply postulate yourself as the sole responsible person in all your doings — that is, you are solely responsible for all your choices; you alone can give values and meaning to your world without any support from God or any other foundation of truth and values. I could hardly imagine your anguish over your shattering experience believing that God has nothing to do with your life and you are left alone — living in your “own sense of right and wrong.” Would it be the best of all possible worlds as each person, who has this liberating experience of yours, claim his/her rightful privilege in determining what is right and wrong? It is liberating but at the same time dreadful. Nonetheless, God if he ever exist will be proud seeing his creature becoming fully human fully alive.
"Why bother in “defining” God which has nothing to do with your life?"
— it was a comment i placed for a discussion thread titled "Your definition of God" so i put in my personal definition, or what i feel is the common definition for the term "god" (in the first line: "god refers to a supreme being or a divine being") and added my own thoughts about it, emphasizing that god (his existence or definition) does not matter to me. so basically the whole piece is not really about my definition of god, but i just patterned the title after the title of the thread that it was originally posted in.
@twin
thanks for the forum topic. was it a bit arrogant if i thought that was because of me?
anyway- it's good that the group has you three. at least.
that's it. i am satisfied.
be well peeps.
@sath. sorry if i picked your thread. it had the most striking title- my definition of god.
@Dean
We are not working together against you.
I have my own demons that I didn’t have before
that make me the way I am now.
And it really is better to talk in person than through the internet.
I learned that the hard way.
Until the end the point is lost.
I’m not thinking that that Jungle Boy- I’m proud of the three of you. I know coming from me that sounds patronizing- but it’s the truth.
I don’t know why you feel insecure- but at least you know how you feel. So toughen up. You can do that. You know why? Because everyone is strong. EVERYONE. being weak is a CHOICE.
– hell you didn’t lose your temper with me. so in that aspect you were strong.
-facing an “annoying” adversary- you were still honest when asked a personal question.
you have no reason to be weak. maybe you need time. maybe this group can help you- maybe you can help them. but stop wallowing.
you owe that to yourself.
that’s it. that’s my last loose thread.
the next post would be the last.
Partly because of you, yes.
But also because what you said made me think. I have met my share of incredibly arrogant, obnoxious jackasses who think that being douchebaggery is the best way to discuss unbelief.
And that includes the people here who resorted to jeers and insults when they didn’t agree with you. That was low.
I know it’s not fault exclusive to the atheist community, but it is a community I give a damn about, so I’d at least try to police our own ranks, so to speak.
So while I still disagree on you thinking we’re “weak” atheists or whatever, I do thank you for reminding me we ourselves shouldn’t be so smug about our path of leaving religion. That we’re always in the process of improving.
That’s it. I leave you guys alone knowing that maybe there is hope for you guys. Seeing an org with atheists and agnostics- i couldn’t help but shake things up.
Yes, I’m a bastard. Yes, I’m annoying.
– How did it feel to have somebody else’s standards shoved in your face? pretty annoying?
How do you think others feel when you guys do that?
You asked me “why do you care how we are?
I’ll ask you- why do you care how they are?
Being an atheist/agnostic is NOT a choice. You can’t convince people to become atheists or agnostics. You just can’t.
Atheism/agnosticism is not a choice. Nobody choose to be an atheist.
When your mindset reaches a certain point (hopefully through logic)- you can’t help but become an atheist/agnostic. There is no choice involved.
So preaching and debating what will it get you? annoyed people that’s what.
Live your life. Live well. Be good examples. Actually scratch that- just don’t put atheists in a bad light- hell, i compared militant atheists to tele-evangelist- and it wasn’t a far throw.
The point is you can’t make an atheist. People will change on their own.
But if riling christians are a part of your being an atheist- go ahead. but know that you’re doing that not because you’re an atheist- you’re doing that because you’re weak.
Strive for logic and reason- and you will find no other alternative but to be strong. weakness is a choice.
If the debating is done badly, yeah it is annoying to my ears too. 🙂
But good debate has a way of inspiring people, and making people think. And if a good discussion can at least plant the seeds, then at least we’ve inspired one guy in a crowd to start thinking of the matter differently.
honestly for me this was a waste of time. he’s like a whining idiot whose shallow complaints keep repeating over and over again. his arguments lack depth. and i hate that i keep getting baited by these things @_@
the reason why the title is “my definition of god” was because i originally posted this “poem” as a response to this FF facebook discussion thread titled “your definition of god” a while back: http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=47548477187&topic=11178&perpage=30&post_index=31&start=0&post_id=122829&hash=7ed456ca4bb20e94d63d7d57e548d9e9#!/topic.php?uid=47548477187&topic=11178 (and it wasn’t really supposed to be meant as a poem). i came across it again somehow and thought maybe it’s post-worthy in the FF site. i did post it on the forums prior to posting it here just to be sure that it’s post-worthy. i definitely did not meant it to be made into a rant spot from someone unnaturally bitter about congregating atheists =/
Sath, there is no rantings here. There are valid points raised by Dean but commentators failed to meet head-on. Instead, they were driven by Dean to play the game which he dictated the rules and its tempo. Shed off what you think are arrogant words and you will see his argument. If you are familiar with the famous atheist Christopher Hitchens, a polemicist with unbearable disdain to religious people, then you will not be surprised by the attitude of Dean here. Not that I think Dean and Hitchens are bastards and morons — both are gifted in provoking others to engage in an “interesting” debate.
hello Nomadic Gadlfy
okay so this is still alive huh?
i dont really want to re-read this whole thing but from what i remember he keeps insisting that congregating atheists are weak and he seems to be convinced that the group is a bunch of proselytizing atheists and he points this out repeatedly even if he has been told that the group is not proselitying (and not everyone in the group are atheists) and that this weakness view of his is his own opinion which some people do not agree with. i’ve given him responses (like why i think preaching reason as opposed to religion is a good thing, and why i think the weakness in my situation spawns from being different/alone from other people as opposed to the need to validate one’s atheistic belief), but he does not counter them, he merely repeats his own stand. his “valid points” ceased to be valid with his constant repetition.
Goodness, I thought we’ve seen the last of this thread.
@Mr. Gadfly, I’d suggest you not read too much into Dean’s ramblings, we’ve given him the benefit of the doubt but his sincerity was found lacking. Its just plain and simple internet trolling, inciting people to get a reaction just for kicks. FYI, its not just this thread he decided to flame inconsiderately but others as well. Link here: https://filipinofreethinkers.org/2010/06/03/calling-all-freethinkers-in-up-diliman/
With the author’s permission, I’d like to suggest that we lock this thread up to further comments as any new posts would most likely focus more on Dean’s ramblings than Sath’s poem. OK with you Sath?
Gadfly, there is a fine line between pushing somebody to rise to a challenge, and just plain pissing them off for its own sake.
Hitchens is often be inflammatory because of the facts that he presents. Dean was inflammatory because he was being a dick.
And I really do suggest you read the rest of Dean’s comments – he was strongly pushing for his definition of what an atheist should be like.
It’s no different from when a fundie runs around claiming that moderate Christians are not “real Christians.
//With the author’s permission, I’d like to suggest that we lock this thread up to further comments as any new posts would most likely focus more on Dean’s ramblings than Sath’s poem.//
Or how about we spam Dean’s comments and delete the replies to those comments?
@Wesley
Yes please, thanks! ^_^
soooo that’s it then? group hug everyone?
gad, so much drama Dean. if you had to make a point, wouldn’t it be simpler to just go say it outright from the onset and spare everyone all sniping? your posts from the start already had an annoying sardonic tone so its reasonable to expect animosity. a troll is a troll, and any point he may have, if at all, would be drowned in all the ranting that’ll surely follow. you did a bad entrance and first impressions last so any legitimate point you may have just got ignored. simple internet psychology.
Some people just aren't very good at trying to say what they want to say, without stepping on toes 😛
Some people just aren't very good at anything at all. Imagine, he can't even differentiate between 'vision' and 'mission'.
Can you differentiate vision and mission?
Can you cite where he failed to differentiate the two?
Hope this applies to all, including yourself, right?
Again, this is why I called you a christian hitchens.
@twin The comparison was that gay rights group didn’t advocate everyone becoming gay. Why is the point always lost?
Ok. So being an atheist means not believing. I would give you that.
Then again, I believe that most atheists and agnostics are strong-willed. Why is that? Because it is not logical to be weak. It is not logical to wallow in your miseries. It is not logical to whine.
But that’s my perspective. I forgot the other thing that makes an atheist. Losing faith. And being an atheist by losing faith- instead of being logical- makes for a weak atheist. and certainly not a very logical one.
So yes, some atheists need support groups. But you can probably infer what kind.
And once again sorry to all of you for calling you posers. I made my assumptions based on the strong rational kind of atheists and agnostics.
I forgot that, yes- there are weak atheists.
but please. Find strength. First and foremost- it is illogical to choose to be (or remain) weak.
But if you did get logical (hence strong)- there wouldn’t be a need for a support group. and certainly no need to care about religion.
ho hum.
I was asked what makes me an expert on atheists. I don't know- I'm not a zealot so maybe I'm not an expert. but neither are the zealots. and definitely not your group.
I have high regards for atheist and agnostics.
I believe that most atheist and agnostics have no need for support groups.
I believe atheists and agnostics can live normally in normal society just by being themselves.
I believe most atheists and agnostics are beyond religion.
And I believe I'm right.
Of course this doesn't apply to your group. You guys are the atheists that need support groups.
You guys feel like you don't belong in the outside world. You feel harassed and not in equal footing. (don't deny it it's in your constitution)
And you guys carry religion in your back.
ok- this might not apply to all of you. (the first one probably does)
but it applies to the guys in this discussion.
—–
let's reverse that.
*Most atheists need support groups. – Wow! you'll certainly have no problems getting members for your UP chapter. You'd have the largest membership there.
How many christians in UP? how many members do christian orgs have?
*Most Atheists are harassed and not given equal treatment in society.
– put example here.
*Most atheists care about religion. – Now that's a sight to see wouldn't it be? LOL
> caring about religion? at the very heart of it- is that logical?
@seth i messaged you because i felt bad upon reading your reply to my first post. I was mistaken- for feeling bad. one funny thing though- you said you didn't care if there was a god or not. then why do you care about religion?
@all I wish I was wrong about atheists not needing support groups (not really)- then you'd have no problems with membership.
hmm 90 million filipinos – 12million in Metro Manila.
my guess is 1-3.5% are atheists and agnostics. (maybe some are agnostic and just don't know it yet)
lets put it at 1%- no make that .5% –> that's 60,000 (MM alone) insecure atheists and agnostics who are desperate for a support group.
even with my conservative numbers – your membership must be swelling. at least 20% of that. So you should have at least 12,000 active members.
how many members are active? hmm… that kinda makes me think that the majority of atheists and agnostics don't need support groups.
which makes me think they can live normally in this religious world.
which makes me think they don't care about religion.
you guys are logical? use some logic. You guys don't represent atheists and agnostics. You just represent the atheists and agnostics that don't fit in (a small minority).
and why don't you guys fit in?
@Dean stop being a narcissist
I have a friend, he told me,
“I am not against religion, I just don’t believe in it.”
He doesn’t visit this site or other atheist blogs. But he did post a video of Dawkins in his Facebook once. I haven’t gotten to that point in living where he is at. Religion still makes me defensive.
Usually those who spend most of their time on the internet like me don’t belong or fit in but I’m just a lurker on FF because I can’t participate in these discussions as well as the rest. But there is a story behind every person. My family is Catholic and they think like Catholics so they could’t understand the way I think and my choices in life. They tried to help me the way catholics know how. My plans got detoured.
Did you see FF’s June essay contest?
“Just write an essay on any of the following themes:
political correctness
science vs. superstition
loneliness and isolation”
The keywords there are “Loneliness and Isolation”
Being a Freethinker means being lonely and isolated? I know your answer.
kudos to your friend. and to you for looking up to him. now that’s a good rolemodel.
Hmm… being a “freethinker” doesn’t mean isolation and loneliness.
being an insecure freethinker probably does.
but that’s why you have support groups.
@Dean
Awww… Now, I hope you can stay. XD
It's great how you try to show them who's boss.
@Jungle Boy
Freethinker = Emo?
I honestly don't know what 'emo' is supposed to mean even when search online.
I was told that I can't be a freethinker because I don't form opinions based on Science, Logic and Reason etc.
If emo is for somebody who is emotional than emo can't be a freethinker.
@Jungle Boy
I was kidding about the emo bit dude XD
And don't ever let anybody tell you that you are or are not a freethinker. That is an aspect of your identity that you develop for yourself – it's not some special attribute others get to bestow upon you.
Like anything else that makes you who you are, it's something you need to actively nurture, which is my way of saying that you should really try to offer your occasional two cents over at the forums, mate.
We don't bite, and so long as you try to keep your opinions civil, we'll help guide you along 🙂
@ JUNGLE
Uhm.. so you would agree that being beyond religion is the next step for an atheist (or at least for you)?
– although I think a good many atheist skipped that step.
*note: I haven’t gotten to that point in living where he is at. Religion still makes me defensive.
Would you agree that still caring about religion is illogical?
This is a personal question addressed to you- as an individual and not as a member of your group.
There is more to life than dealing with the problems of what other people believe in. It is the next step in a way that it is moving on from your problems with their religion and facing your life, into the real world composed of different people with different beliefs.
It's like when the atheist separates themselves from other people because of their religious differences.
If the atheist can get along with others and not judge by their religious differences then that will take away a lot of the tension.
It's going to be illogical because why does an atheist have to make it hard for himself by being hostile to another person. If you're going to be hostile, you will be the one who loses.
[Oh my lord! See- I have found at least one logical mind. They need not be destroyed after all.]
kudos to you.
maybe there is hope for your group after all. I hope you ARE part of their group (for their sake). But then again- I hope you do get to “evolve” like your friend and be “free”
Jungle boy, your intellectual attitude reminds me of the famous Socrates: knowing that you know nothing. Many philosophers view this Socratic philosophy as true wisdom.
I think that believers and non-believers can peacefully co-exist. There is a level in dialogue which goes beyond the discursive antagonism in theoretical/doctrinal level — the dialogue of life. Concerning the issue of social justice, for example, believers and non-believers can work together to outline sound critique of social order that promotes and sustains social injustice. Some western thinkers can hardly believe that there are filipino marxists who are still devoted to their faith. Impossible quest? No, not at all.
Hence, I dream that this forum becomes a venue where believers and non-believers can productively discuss issues which are not restricted by religious vs non-religious conflict.
@dean. hi dean. i already told you my concerns on the negative impacts on religion and it has nothing to do with the belief in a god. so please answer your own question yourself.
my own questons?
Do I believe most atheists and agnostics need support groups?
Uhh… no.
Do I believe most atheists and agnostics can’t live normally in society?
Uhh no.
Do I believe most atheists and agnostics care about religion?
Uhh…still no.
Why don’t you guys fit in (in normal society)?
uhh… because you guys are weak? hell, if you guys were christians- you still wouldn’t fit in. Don’t blame your beliefs for not fitting in. That’s just a lame excuse.
Do I believe that you, Dean, are desperate for attention?
Uhm… yes.
Do I believe that you, Dean, have nothing better to do than argue online from an anonymous account because you're a pathetic loser?
Uhm… yes.
Do I believe that all your points are based on dumb and shallow assumptions and are not really worth reading?
Uhm… yes.
Do I believe that you think you're better than other people because you think you've been through a lot of pain, humiliation, and abuse?
Uhm… yes.
No one has to refute your points because they're stupid. Okay, you're points still stand – but they stands as monuments of stupidity.
Flaming? how logical indeed. congrats.
Oh so it’s stupid to think that most atheists don’t need support groups?
It’s stupid to think that most atheists can live normally in society?
It’s stupid to think most atheists are beyond religion?
Oh my… how low you regards for atheists.
but then again- you,re probably basing your statements on the atheists in your group.
Hey Dean,
Love your Ideas, we should talk face to face. Just message me when you have the time.
Regards
Sure. Anything for a fellow entrepreneur. Looked over your blog. Seems pretty well made. And you like frou frou. That's refreshing. (no mockery there- I like frou frou too)
We get it. You don't like our group. You think we don't fit into your criteria of what an atheist should be like.
I didn't even know there was some sort of codex for such things 😀
@Twin-Skies
Hello Filipino Freethinker Peeps!
I never did introduce myself when I started on this site like in the Introduce Yourself section in the Forums. So that is why I don’t get any recognition. Maybe I’m just wary about it because I don’t want to be associated with anybody. I’m Hyper Self-Conscious so I try to be reserved so that I won’t feel that. But anyway Let me introduce myself.
I’m turning 27 this month so I’m not a boy. But I chose this name because I feel like I still haven’t matured socially because I’ve been living under a rock/in a cave(my house). Maybe I can share some of what I have learned. Though I always think that nobody cares about me.
@Jungle Boy
Like I said, new members are always welcome in the forums 😀
And as for your last point
“Though I always think that nobody cares about me.”
Well I’m talking to you right now, so you can count me as one guy here who cares.
And if you haven’t introduced yourself at the forums, all I can really say is that you should. It’s really hard for us to interact with a ghost, and I’m sure the guys there will be more than happy to welcome another guy with his own perspective on things.
@Dean
In retrospect, I realize that all that it takes for one to be an atheist is one does not believe in religion. As to how one exercises their sense of atheism, it’s really up to them.
You posted on another thread earlier by trying to compare us to gays, so I will use that as a reference: Who is “more gay” or more black within their respective communities? There is no real answer to that no more than there is to your constant assertion of what a “real” atheist is.
I was thinking that you got your ID from the chapter of the "What Makes Man Truly Human" by a philosopher Jesuit Michael Moga in his discussion of the "Jungle Boy Situation" in "Society as the Fulfillment of Man".
This chapter describes the problematic of living in isolation and affirms the need for society — "for human life to be fully human it must be fully social. The full realization of human life is only found in a society."
This is why I still can't comprehend that aversion of Dean about the need for support group for the non-believers. While I understand that to congregate can lead to an organized movement which in due time become like religious movements. Once the non-believers' movement is organized, there is now a need to make standards of belief system where everyone must adhere. Dissenters are condemned and ex-communicated. Thus, the non-believers movement becomes a "new religion."
Eric Reitan, philosophy professor and author of "Is God a Delusion? A Reply to Religion's Cultured Despisers", wrote this phenomenon in his blog:
"The other morning I read a brief interview with Bernard Beckett, a New Zealand school teacher and young adult novelist, who shifted from being a self-described atheist to being an agnostic after chairing an event featuring Richard Dawkins. He says he was put off by the kind of true-believer mentality of the fans that crowded in to hear Dawkins speak—and he was reminded of the kind of group-think and demand for orthodoxy that had turned him off of church. Here’s how he puts it:
…it felt more like being in church. Suddenly, there were a whole heap of people who seemed to be responding as one. To me, that reproduced some of the things I disliked about the church I was brought up in, because leaps are made from atheism to other beliefs that you are meant to have as well.
Perhaps, this helps explain Dean's point of view.
Hey Sath,
Is Dean a crazy ex or stalker of yours? Facebook pals kayo e, hehe 😀 I'm curious why he singled you out of all the other writers here. I'm sure there are a lot more strongly-worded essays on religion posted here yet he decided to pick on you particularly.
@wes
We're NOT facebook friends. He just sent me a private message from one of his accounts or something. I don't know why me, I don't know how he got my facebook account (though I guess that wouldn't be so hard if you know my full name??) and I definitely don't know if he is a stalker… please NO!! YUCK!!
@Dean
Stupid question again! You already know my answer! Atheists are HUMANS. There are atheists who are apathetic and there are atheists who are sympathetic and there are atheists who are strong and there are atheists who are weak. I DO NOT STEREOTYPE THEM!!! I DO NOT CLAIM WHAT THEY SHOULD BE!!! If you don't like how I see them, go look for validation of your definition of atheists SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!
sorry for even suggesting it, hehe 😀
kinilabutan ka ba at the thought?
first I thought it Frank pulling a really elaborate prank on you or it was a pickup line gone awry… I was half taking it seriously, half taking it as a prank, then the thread started getting more and more bizarre…
First he goes "Your group is preaching atheism! You're no better than those preachers and evangelists you despise!" then he goes "all you do is talk and have symposiums among yourselves glorifying this-and-that" ano ba talaga kuya? If we're vocal, he objects. If we keep to ourselves, he also objects.
All this passive-aggressive baiting is pointless. All Dean is arguing about is dictating boundaries on self-expression which he himself has deemed authoritative enough to define.
Fine.
By all means, go apply it to your own life, Dean. But leave everyone else the liberty to define their own boundaries. That's why its called "Free-thinking", not "Dean-thinking". Do you see any imaginary guidelines here on how to act, think, and speak up? There isn't any, because you get to decide that for yourself.
Perhaps it's high time that we you this "stalker"'s identity, Sapethine.
I'm sure some of us here would be more than happy to initiate a more intimate discourse with Dean, aka. Mr "things don't give a shit about me, so that doesn't make me apathetic" aka. Mr. "I'm better than you so I don't need to listen to what you have to say".
BYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!
Flaming really? That’s how logical you are? What a fine example.
And your premise is so wrong it shames your group once again. I don’t give a shit about religion because it’s beyond me (and most atheists and agnostics). Is that apathetic?
How can I respond to something that has no value in my world?
Listen to yourself. Do you sound like a logical person? even in jest you sound like an oaf.
@sath whatever gave you the impression? was it my first post in this thread? i was apologetic. that was it.
I guess you showed me how logical you are too.
@wes
lol thats a funny thought. Frank knows I have a boyfriend (who I'm living with right now) and wouldn't pull a pick up line on me. I'm also confident he doesn't have romantic feelings for me anymore, in case you have that idea 😛
@The Dean Scream
The account Dean used to message me was his d&d account (according to him) so I bet it was a false name (not even pronounceable). I don't really know him (or want to). I don't respect him but unfortunately, I have principles (or something like it) so I don't think it's appropriate to give it out considering the subject of his message was "I thought this should be out of the public eye" though his messages were pretty much similar from his comments here. But by principle, I try as much as I can to honor people's privacy, whether they are respectable or not.
But if he would be kind enough to tell you so himself then he would be richly rewarded with a new "friend" ^____^
That’s it? comparing muslim zealots to atheist zealots? and admitting your “prophets” are zealots?
that is just so rich.
@sath hey. how do you see atheists?
@twin have you ever seen an ateneo-lasalle game? have you ever seen a right-wing tele-evangelist? sure your prophets never killed or ordered a bombing- but that’s not the point. They’re still zealots. And they’re still irritating to moderates.
Let’s say I’m a christian (or just a plain believer)- and I say I don’t go to church but I have a personal relationship with god (yes I know cheesy). A lot of believers say that.
And now here are atheists who subscribe to the words of a “prophet” -although tele-evangelist seems more like it.
Do you see the irony?
You say Religion is superstition- yet you “fawn over” a tele-evangelist. You base your thoughts (or at least are influenced) on written books- bibles? tell me twin- do you plan on being an atheist minister?
Freethinkers? Think for yourself.
I do think for myself, and quite frankly, all I see you doing is trying to set up a strawman of what atheists are.
You try to make a poorly reasoned pleading that in some way, atheists who exercise their right to speak their mind and say their honest opinion about are no different from Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. Quite frankly, i think you're talking bullshit.
And Dean, unless you've been living under a rock, or you've never been to one of our meets, a couple of our members also happen to belong to one religious denomination or another. We do not tell them point-blank that their religion is wrong; it's a live and let live policy.
The only time I will lash out at religious people is when they use it as a justification for prejudice and their stupidity.
"twin have you ever seen an ateneo-lasalle game? have you ever seen a right-wing tele-evangelist? sure your prophets never killed or ordered a bombing- but that’s not the point. They’re still zealots. And they’re still irritating to moderates."
And you can't seem to tell the difference between somebody who gives a scathing, well-reasoned criticism, or writes a books on what he disagrees with, and one who tries to minister with the business end of an AK-47.
And Dean, you can't really say somebody is wrong just because they're "annoying." My mom may be annoying when she constantly tells me that I should eat less, but her annoyance in itself does not negate the value of the lesson – I am overweight, and I do need to watch my diet 🙂
Human Rights groups are annoying too btw, at least if you happen to be a warlord in Africa, or Kim Jung Il 🙂 Does that mean we should tell them to shut up about their advocacy?
Much in the same way – when atheist step up and speak out against the self-entitlement most religions are used to, it's an inevitable that toes will be stepped on. You think it's annoying when I tell you that treating women like second-class citizens, well too bad – it doesn't make the superstition we're combating any more right.
and again the point was lost.
the point was- that zealots in any group- don't represent the moderates. maybe the moderates are fine with how things are?
that's different from apathetic. your apathetic if religion affects you- and you do nothing. religion doesn't affect me at all. why should it? it's not significant in my life.
speaking up is ok. nothing wrong with that. ever had a jehovah's witness knock on your door to preach?
you want atheists doing that? promoting atheism?
of course you and sath would say that: no we promote logic and reason.
duh? and sath? teaching math does promote logical thinking yes. maybe you guys should stick to teaching math instead of bashing religion. teaching math certainly is a safe ground.
Ho-hum.
Once again you failed to read my reply thoroughly 😀
“ever had a jehovah’s witness knock on your door to preach?
you want atheists doing that? promoting atheism?”
That is most disturbing news. We have door-to-door atheists who knock on people’s homes in the wee hours of the morning to convert and condemn believers?
*Gasp*
Please – share us where you found this news!
Once again, I fail to see where you’re going with this. PZ Myers and people like him don’t pretend to be speaking on the authority of some greater sky daddy – they speak for themselves. And he certainly does not go door to door converting people – his back wouldn’t be able to take it.
And Dean, you do know the difference between activism and zealotry, right? 🙂
@Setaphine @Dean
I know Maybe I seem bigoted.
Dean, I thought FF was a bunch of Atheist Posers? I was just going with what you started.
I don't have enough experience on these topics like a lot of things. And I don't want to just repeat things because everybody here has already seen it or heard about it already. But there are a lot of stuff out there to discover but I'm not the person to show you.
I think atheists are just using their freedom of speech to speak their mind. And they have every right to do so. To rattle the cages of the Christian minds so to speak.
Sorry I'm slow to reply
@Dean
just curious, what gave you the right to speak for ALL atheists? what made you feel like you're the expert on atheism? enlighten me.
because its confusing. you said you're agnostic, therefore not atheist. and if we go for definition, atheism is just defined in simple terms that it is the belief that god does not exist. where did you get the idea on your concept of atheism? "preaching atheists does not make sense" is a lousy excuse to make you an expert.
agnostic or atheist (even christian or jew or muslim)- it doesn't matter when it comes to views on other religions.
you know why preaching atheists doesn't make sense?
because preaching doesn't make sense.
How many agnostics and atheists do you think we have? How many actually care to join your group?
again like fraternities and sororities- only the weak join.
The strong need no affirmations from peers. The strong needs no support group.
"Oh I'm so alone because I'm an atheist. I need other atheists around me."
please.
(In relevance to how I view people in general) I don't think lowly of atheists and agnostics. I have high regards for them.
I actually believe most atheists and agnostics don't need support groups. I actually think they're strong enough to stand on their own. I also believe that religion– is beyond them.
Do you believe otherwise?
and we are looping yet again. you're going with the "weakness" blah2x yet again. your lame response is yet another repeat and it is definitely not a proof that you are some expert on atheism. therefore, you are NOT a credible source, NOT a credible judge, and NOT a credible spokesperson regarding atheism.
==========
Do you believe otherwise?
==========
oh for goodness sake, do i need to respond to this? you should know by now based on my responses to you that YES, i do believe otherwise. i believe that not all atheists are and should be apathetic.
you are not credible, you are not an authority, and you are looping your arguments. you failed to comprehend the terms of the vision statement even if it was clearly defined in simple english and you use your misinterpretations as lousy arguments. you seem to have no clue what democracy is and you seem to be even promoting against it. you ask questions like "how do you guys promote reason, logic, critical thinking, and intellect?" — oh come on! you cannot think of one single example to do it?? not one?? you ask questions you should know the answers to – if you were only using your intellect and your memory. earlier you kept trying to convince me that i was weak blah2x even if i already admitted that i am!! what is wrong with you? can't you see how stupid you sound?? you are one glitchy robot!! i feel like my IQ is dropping just by talking to you. yet still i'm doing it!! goodbye IQ~~~!!! T_T
ok, rant over. i'm fine now. that was just for entertainment purposes. heeeee ^_________________^
– How do you promote logic? Really tell me. Please.
That's like promoting world peace! Have your symposium and your talks- and then what happens? Talk among yourselves- and that's promoting logic to the logical. promoting logic… glorifying maybe- but promoting?
– Free speech? please. A christian can go on about god and all- that's fine. but when he starts proselytizing- it becomes irritating. He has the right of course- but I also have the right to refuse. It's also disrespectful.
Are you a christian? then why act like one?
—
Now as for seeing atheists…
Ok let's divide that into three points for clarity.
-Do you actually believe most atheists and agnostics
need support groups?
-Do you actually think most are not strong enough to stand on their own amongst peers with religion?
-Do you think religion is a focal point in most atheists and agnostics' lives?
Do you really think so low of atheists?
—-
I didn't say atheists should be apathetic. I said they should be (and most really are) beyond religion.
Why? because religion is insignificant.
Dean, religion pervades everyday pinoy life, and one of the most blatant examples of this was Comelec’s decision to block the Ang Ladlad movement’s bid as a partylist on grounds of “immorality.”
The Comelec chairmen explicitly quoted passages from the bible and koran to justify their decision, despite the fact that Article 6 of the Philippine constitution was very clear on the separation of church and state.
The Comelec is many things, but one of them is not being a moral arbiter. That privilge is best left to holy rollers and fundies.
And then we have the CBCP’s insistence on blocking any sex education programs for public schools, and their vocal opposition of Esperanza Cabral’s condom promotion, and the church’s advisory to not vote for any politician who is in favor of the pending RH Bill, and rabidly pushes for their abstinence-only policy on birth control
All this opposition, despite the damning amount of research from sources such as various state health departments, WHO, and the Guttmacher institute, who have indicated that the best way to combat unwanted abortions in the first place is sex education and responsible contraceptive use.
And then we have the Pope himself, who has on more than one occasion demonized the homosexual community, contraceptive users, and atheists simply because we don’t fit into their status quo, and we don’t adhere to their bullshit (well, at least not anymore).
In the case of the former, these are not mere words being exchanged. The CBCP has repeatedly distorted the facts on sex ed, and has railroaded the RH Bill. This is a religious organization enroaching on a gov’t that’s not supposed to favor one religion over another.
The gov’t of a country I happen to live in, Dean.
So if you insist that we non-theists should act like a bunch of arrogant, self-assured asshats who refuse to be involved in trying to help improve how this country runs, then all I can say is that you have one incredibly messed up view of what an atheist is.
It’s not so much that we’re not “beyond” religion; It doesn’t have to be religion Dean – any group that intentionally spreads misinformation and ignorance is fair game. Religion just happens to be the loudest.
dean. it's spelled D-E-A-N. it rhymes with bean. which is spelled B-E-A-N. there are many different types of beans. for example, there's the soya bean. oooh. there's a shop called "mr. bean" and it sells soya milk products. yummy. it tastes like taho. i miss taho. they have pearly milk shakes too with yummy sago. you drink and chew. it's like Zagu. i miss Zagu. i always order mocha. mocha is yummy. it tastes like coffee. i love coffee. i used to have a coffee press and used to buy beans at starbucks. they have many different types of beans from all over the world. its expensive, like P300+ but it lasts a month if i use it with press and have two coffee daily so i think it's worth it. i'm a coffee addict. coffee is also made with beans. which is spelled B-E-A-N. and rhymes with dean. dean. ^_^
So tell us Dean, what is a "Strong" atheist? 🙂
Richard Dawkins, James Randi, Greta Cristina, and PZ Myers might have been good choices given how fervently they promote human reason, but given your definition of what a "strong" atheist is, they disqualify since they either actively blog among their peers and other atheist groups, or they actively join conventions, meets, and other gatherings of fellow heathens. In short, they're social creatures, as all human beings should be.
I'll tell you what I think of you now, Dean.
I think that you're forcibly trying to project what you think we nonbelievers (I'm not even an atheist, I'm a deist) should behave like. And when we don't meet your criteria of what an atheist "should" be like, you try to repeat your image of an atheist to us until we fold.
And I agree with Sathepine earlier – we don't have a need to prove anything to you, and if you don't like the idea of atheists who enjoy each other's company and are quite secure with their sense of manhood (or in Sathepine's case, womanhood), well boo-fucking-hoo for you, bub.
We like talking to each other, and we like criticizing religious fundamentalism equally. If you don't like our conversations, you're more than welcome to leave 😉
Uhm… they're Zealots? and yes, a zealot is a strong atheist. They qualify indeed. ( I wonder when the tele-evangelist-like atheist preacher would appear? You'd like that wouldn't you?)
Do you look up to them? Are they your "prophets"?
Atheism acting like the church it abhors. Is that what you want?
That's definitely not the atheist in my mind.
There is just one problem Dean – none of these people I mentioned ever asks of their fans (or would you prefer the term acolytes?) to follow them in blind obedience.
And none of them ever called for violent actions against organizations – save for pharyngulating online surveys – nor have they called on minorities to be persecuted just because they’re different.
In fact, they have actively defended the rights of other minorities, and have condemned any threats of violence that are raised against even other religious fundies – the very people they loathe.
They’re also very welcoming of criticism – they know full well know that they only speak for themselves, and if they ever do make any mistakes or lapses in judgement, they’re quick to correct such mistakes, and to apologize for them.
So clearly they’re not zealots. Obscenely popular on the net maybe, but
In short, we don’t worship these people Dean – we respect them, and they respect us.
Clearly not a signs of a zealot.
The only thing here that I see that has any traces of zealotry is your insistence of us following your definition of what a strong atheist is.
You don’t get to define who we are.
And dean, I have a question: Poe?
https://filipinofreethinkers.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/321.gif
there was this animated show named "wild cats" before, if i'm not mistaken with the title. there's a character there named zealot. i kinda like her. i like grifter too. he's like gambit and i like gambit. hmm in fact i think zealot and grifter were love interests? im not sure, i forgot. i don't really know if the show would appeal to me now, but back then, i really liked it. ^_^
So when was the last time an atheist "zealot" blew himself up in front of a church, told women they were men's objects, hid their flock's pedophiles for decades, or shot anybody who did not follow the path of Dawkin?
Richard Dawkins, James Randi are not prophets they are the Rock Stars! of the Atheist community. Although everybody has their critics.
You know how it is with Rock Stars. They have groupies everywhere. And the fans just can't get enough of them.
They want to look like them, talk like them and act like them.
@ jungleboy
Jungle Boy says:
June 4, 2010 at 10:43 pm
“I would like to believe that most atheists don’t care whether the christian majority agrees with them.”
Christianity, because they are the majority, are the same group of people atheists want to turn into atheists in order for them to finally succeed. That’s why atheists made it their mission to refute religion. So they care about christianity joining them.
Sorry my mind is really a mess.
– Uh. again. You think so lowly of atheists.
in order for them to finally succeed? most atheists don't care about/ are beyond religion. you probably mean Zealot (LOL) atheists.
The al-qaeda to us normal muslims. The right-wing christian activist to us moderates.
Zealots aren't better than their religious counterparts. they're what's wrong with religion.
Wow, Dean was right. None of us resemble what a true militant atheist looks like!
http://unreasonablefaith.com/2010/06/02/militant-atheism/
So that’s what’s missing, we need the hat!
@igme
you really have no grasp of idioms.
love? i find your group amusing, yes. some members provide worthy discourse. you, however, do not.
battle my points and ideas. not my presence.
if that's too much for you… then shut up kid (old kid at that)- your betters are having a discussion.
Dean, you can put up your link now. The one you probably want us to visit. You're hit-fishing, right? Trolling to get hits to your site and stuff. To do that, you kinda need to put up your site's URL.
Go on, we'll throw a couple of hits your way, just to increase your stats. Hopefully that'll give you all the attention you're trying to get by trolling us lesser atheists and agnostics.
Sheesh.
i don't have a site sorry. I'm trying to have a discussion with a group that should be rich in intellectuals.
You guys are acting like trawlbait.
Lol! what I see here is a christian hitchens!
@Dean
So you were not bashing FF as a whole about the proselytizing thing?? I’m sorry I really thought you were. That’s why I kept trying to tell you the FF is not that kind of group. Sorry, my bad. If you had said so earlier, I wouldn’t have wasted all that effort. But you never really corrected me, I don’t know why.
If you find my arguments weak, then okay. I’ve got nothing left. I’ve said everything I have to say and they make sense to me (and your counter arguments are too shallow). If our discussion continues, it’s just gonna be repeating a loop. You’re just going to be saying the same thing over and over again. “Weakness” blah2x. As long as as you understand that the FF is not that kind of group (as I’ve been explaining to you), then we’re cool.
I agree with what Twin Skies said. So I will not repeat my views about proselytizing atheists. He explains it better, and with more content than my explanations hehe. (Maybe my arguments WERE weak LOL)
Look down on me as much as you want. I don’t need your respect (if I needed it before, well not anymore). I’ve already gained the respect of everyone who matters to me with my own flesh and blood (yes, it involved some blood). As for you, I think people who look down on the weak and brag about it over and over again do not deserve my respect. I do look down on the weak sometimes myself but I know it should be wrong. I want to be more open-minded towards them. (I consider religious people to be psychologically weak because they need fantasies to cope). But anyway, you do not need my respect. So don’t let it bother you.
For your sake, I hope you don’t ever have to experience weakness and I hope you don’t ever have to need support. Maybe when a loved one dies, or a girlfriend leaves you, or a boss just demands impossible things from you. These things could eventually break people’s limits over the course of time, rendering them weak, and with that mentality of yours, you’d definitely crumble. But then I imagine you to be a robot… or a zombie… so you’ll be fine LOL
Read my reply to twin skies.
Oh and I don't want you to respect me. I want you to respect your own (FF's) vision statement.
Who made that anyway?
i do respect the statement. what makes you think i dont? by the way, i said the group basically promotes reason, logic, critical thinking, and intellect. i think that's true. correct me if i'm wrong, people, as, again, i am not really a spokesperson for this group. and i'm not even that active, as i have mentioned.
by the way, it said: "their RIGHTS and FREEDOMS fully protected, their concerns and opinions adequately represented." but you're concerned about protecting BELIEFS (totally different from "rights" and "freedoms"). beliefs should be tolerated, yes, but not protected. most especially if the belief involves denying peoples rights and freedoms, like example, murdering people in the name of a god. that should be punishable by law, not protected. beliefs should have a right to be expressed, yes. but actions on those beliefs should coincide with protecting rights and freedoms.
promoting logic over superstition goes with freedom of speech so it should be protected. and it does not go against any right or freedom. it may go against some belief, but there should be nothing wrong with that.
=======
so you’ve disproven religion to yourselves (congrats)- now what do you do? well… if your Vision statement is right… well nothing
=======
in what way does the vision statement say that we do NOTHING?? in fact it implies that we should be free to exercise our Right to Freedom of Speech, free to speak up about our concerns and opinions, and be protected for it, like example, nobody puts us in jail for speaking up. As long as we do not, like, kill anyone by doing so (which would be trampling people's rights).
i hope this clarifies the vision statement for you.
Freedom of religion?
Sathepine says:
June 4, 2010 at 10:38 pm
i do respect the statement. what makes you think i dont? by the way, i said the group basically promotes reason, logic, critical thinking, and intellect. i think that’s true. correct me if i’m wrong, people, as, again, i am not really a spokesperson for this group. and i’m not even that active, as i have mentioned.
by the way, it said: “their RIGHTS and FREEDOMS fully protected, their concerns and opinions adequately represented.” but you’re concerned about protecting BELIEFS (totally different from “rights” and “freedoms”). beliefs should be tolerated, yes, but not protected. most especially if the belief involves denying peoples rights and freedoms, like example, murdering people in the name of a god. that should be punishable by law, not protected. beliefs should have a right to be expressed, yes. but actions on those beliefs should coincide with protecting rights and freedoms.
-drama? have you actually been denied any right because you're an atheist? are we in the crusades? what era are you in?
Again how do you guys promote reason, logic, critical thinking, and intellect? Please do tell.
Superstition can be bashed yes, but logic promoted?
You can't want your belief to be respected but not respect others.
You say, you- personally- tolerate others' religion. good for you. yet you don't see my point.
And the point is NOT that beliefs should be respected. That's just a layer- the shallowest at that.
Beliefs shouldn't even matter. Atheists- and everyone at that- should be beyond the beliefs of others.
grr. i am not an atheist. i am an agnostic. "agnostic atheist" is considered agnostic. grr (and please don't tell me again "you can't be both" because i already clarified that with you)
==========
-drama? have you actually been denied any right because you’re an atheist? are we in the crusades? what era are you in?
==========
i am not being dramatic, i'm explaining the vision statement. if you don't like the examples because they do not reflect our times, fine. but the vision statement still holds. don't tell me please that you still don't get it.
==========
Again how do you guys promote reason, logic, critical thinking, and intellect? Please do tell.
==========
there are many ways to do that. i would think some ways are to provide forums like these, spread scientific articles that challenge the mind, start intellectual debates that exercise the mind.
==========
Superstition can be bashed yes, but logic promoted?
==========
by encouraging logical thinking as opposed to superstitious thinking, you are promoting logic. so that's an example to enlighten you.
==========
You can’t want your belief to be respected but not respect others.
==========
Ahem? I respect other people's beliefs. But the issues is not about RESPECTING beliefs. it's about the FREEDOM to EXPRESS them. the expression AGAINST other beliefs is ALSO under freedom of speech/freedom of expression. that is why i can only frown upon and speak against the "draw mohammed day" (if you know about it) because they are exercising their right to express their disdain by drawing mohammed (which is offensive to muslims). it was a protest against the extremists who sent death threats to th. i found it directly offensive and irresponsible but anyone should be free to do it without being threatened to death. even if that act incites hatred of some sort (which i disapprove), it is still under the Freedom of Expression right and it should still be protected.
it's up to individual people to decide on their own what beliefs deserve to be expressed and respected, but yeah, people are generally free to express disrespect, among other things. (again, as long as they do not trample other people's rights and freedoms. i'm wondering if you've heard of democracy?)
================
You say, you- personally- tolerate others’ religion. good for you. yet you don’t see my point.
================
i personally tolerate religion but i do not demand people to do the same thing. i do not demand that they think the same way i do. if they want to speak against any religion they have every right to do so. we live in a democratic world (unless if you're not in a democratic country hehe). i will frown on them, yes, but i know that they have that right.
================
And the point is NOT that beliefs should be respected. That’s just a layer- the shallowest at that.
Beliefs shouldn’t even matter. Atheists- and everyone at that- should be beyond the beliefs of others.
================
again, what made you think that you are the expert on atheism? i'm REALLY curious about this.
shit, to ants, to cockroach now…thanks for the promotion
i couldn'nt reply below your post wes so here. first of all kudos to you for bringing substance.
1. Sathepine said: “And I don’t look down on you- I look down on everyone.” honestly, in my opinion, i think a lot of people in this group have the same attitude, at least towards the religious. it’s one thing i don’t like. but that’s just me. sorry guys
– So when I say bigot and they- the premises are set. infer a bit. see what came before.
* and the very notion of self-superiority, this “They’re being bigots. I’m universal- hence no bigotry.” is ironically a bigoted statement itself… this “my way is correct, yours is not” attitude is a hallmark of non-tolerance that a one-track minded person would have.
– that was humor- with truth. take it too seriously and you expose yourself to being one-track minded (hehe). Non-tolerance? take out squishing ants(hobby) and I'm pretty tolerant.
I personally don't mind cockroaches as long as they don't affect my life (analogy! you one-tracked thinking gnome!). A preacher proselytizing wouldn't affect me because he's insignificant. Religion is insignificant. God is insignificant. Everything is insignificant. Oh… everything but me. and those that I let affect me.
Does religion affect you? then you're giving it too much importance. use those calories to save the whales or whatever.
* if you get your kicks from putting other people down, trolling, and telling other people that you don’t approve of what they do with their lives, then I’m sorry but you have no right to call yourself un-bigoted.
– i get kicks yes. bigotry? i don't really think i'm intolerant. generally, people's beliefs are beyond me. they're insignificant. how can i be a bigot if don't even think they're significant? (Igme, if you want to reply using this line, go ahead- but that's just nitpicking [smiley face])
If you hate (not tolerate is a long word) jews- you're a bigot. if you hate every religion- still a bigot. if you think religion is insignificant and it does not affect you at all- is that bigotry?
bashing self-proclaimed atheists acting like preachers isn't bigotry. I am not against atheism. atheism donning the traps of religion?- now that's sacrilege.
“I’m not bashing FF as a hole. I’m bashing proselytizing atheists.”
So you’d rather we sit down and shut up? The concept of a democracy is lost to you isn’t it? I suggest reading Article 3, Section 4.
Atheists have as much right as everybody else to speak their mind. If you don’t like what they say, you do not ask them to shut up.
“On promoting reason and logic? Fine with me.
How do you go about doing that? Do you really promote logic? Or do you you guys just bash superstition? those two are separate things.”
Promoting reason and logic involves developing an understanding that unless evidence is presented regarding an assertion, said assertion can’t really be held true.
Ergo, if the evidence we have developed through reasoning and logical thinking have shown to use that a certain superstition doesn’t hold water, then doesn’t it follow that we should debunk it.
Bashing a superstition because we THINK it’s stupid is immature, I’ll give you that. On the other hand, I think it’s even more immature to follow a superstition despite the fact we have already disproven it, unless you’re an anthropologist, but even then such disciplines require the observer to mantain a degree of detachment from the culture they’re embedded with.
“This is what we want. To hell with other peoples’ rights, views and belief.”
No, that’s not us talking. That’s you pretending to know what we are.
Most of us here wouldn’t really give a damn about what a person’s personal faith is.
The issues begin when said religious folks start using their religion to enroach on the rights of other people, and to start influencing matters of public policy – a realm where religion is supposed to be persona non grata.
I wouldn’t really care if you for example said you’re INC or a Muslim. The problem begins when somebody starts enforcing your religion as a basis for enforcing your religious doctrine as Philippine law.
“Is that a one-way thing? Promoting logic? How do you guys do that without enroaching on your target’s beliefs? ”
It’s a little hard to say when we start enroaching on somebody else’s beliefs. For example, even attempting to talk of the prophet Muhammad’s actual historical past will “offend” Muslims, while even questioning the infallibility of the Pope will “offend” certain Catholics.
From my experience, discussing matters such as logic doesn’t have a clear-cut way of being “promoted.” It really depends on who you’re talking to.
ho-hum.
again: FF: Vision: Why we’re here
Long-term: Freethinkers can live in a Philippines free from all forms of violence, discrimination, and prejudice, their rights and freedoms fully protected, their concerns and opinions adequately represented.
Sathepine said it was FF’s mission to advocate logic (is she wrong? if so please tell her). but back to the vision statement. you guys want to be left alone in your beliefs – you want your beliefs protected. what about the belief of others then?
That’s why when you advocate logic versus superstition- you cross a line (with regards to the vision statement).
even you say that Logic has no clear-cut way of being promoted. Bashing superstition is not promoting logic.
So even if Sath thinks highly of you- My question with regards to “your” Vision statement has still not been answered.
* Bashing a superstition because we THINK it’s stupid is immature, I’ll give you that. On the other hand, I think it’s even more immature to follow a superstition despite the fact we have already disproven it, unless you’re an anthropologist, but even then such disciplines require the observer to mantain a degree of detachment from the culture they’re embedded with.
– so you’ve disproven religion to yourselves (congrats)- now what do you do? well… if your Vision statement is right… well nothing. You want to be left alone in your beliefs. again… unless it’s a one way thing.
I,m hitting you guys with your own Vision statement and you guys are still struggling.
If you prove me wrong- you prove your vision statement is a hoax.
funny. I didn’t think I would be the one advocating FF’s vision against you guys nonetheless.
Oh my, you really are full of drivel, Dean. ‘Mission’ is different from ‘vision’. If you read the FF’s ‘mission’ – which is just below the ‘vision’ – you’d see that our No. 1 ‘mission’ is to “Promote freethought, science, and reason…” – exactly what Satephine was saying. If reason could someday find its way to the majority (or at least to a significant number) of Filipinos living in this predominantly religious and superstitious country that frowns on reason and sometimes even equates it with Satanism, wouldn’t that help us achieve our ‘vision’? Well I guess that’s too much for your imagination (or lack thereof) to handle.
"i care because i like squishing ants."
big intellectual giant such as yourself having fun with ants. you're not a child are you having fun on sure wins? nah you love us more than that, cmon. i know you love me.
@sathepine
how did you actually refute the points? Your arguments need weak people as a foundation to work.
I’m not bashing FF as a hole. I’m bashing proselytizing atheists.
On promoting reason and logic? Fine with me.
How do you go about doing that? Do you really promote logic? Or do you you guys just bash superstition? those two are separate things.
what’s my stand on promoting logic? that’s your big argument?
should I still answer this?
* FF: Vision: Why we’re here
Long-term: Freethinkers can live in a Philippines free from all forms of violence, discrimination, and prejudice, their rights and freedoms fully protected, their concerns and opinions adequately represented.
Short-term: Freethinkers in the Philippines can easily meet or talk to fellow freethinkers to enjoy online and offline activities wherever they live and whatever their cultural or socioeconomic background.
– So you guys want your rights and freedoms fully protected… a Philippines where freethinkers are free from discrimination.
Is that a one-way thing? Promoting logic? How do you guys do that without enroaching on your target’s beliefs?
Or is freethinker dogma sacred as opposed to others?
That’s your FF vision right there. Do you oppose the vision?
Or is the “Freethinkers can live in a Philippines free from all forms of violence, discrimination, and prejudice, their rights and freedoms fully protected, their concerns and opinions adequately represented.” a one way thing?
This is what we want. To hell with other peoples’ rights, views and belief.
Is this the Logical answer you want miss?
Change your “Vision” or change your attitude towards religion.
This is why atheists that give a damn about religion suck.
ok i logged in this time.
dean, during our correspondence, i have told you already more than once that the group is not what you think it to be, that you only have a shallow impression of it. Poe is telling you that too.
did you not read this part (and other parts) of my message? (refer to paragraph below)
“My point is the group is just a gathering of people with like minds. It’s not a cult. Not the way I see it. Some people may want to “preach” and others may not. Some people haven’t even told their families. The group just try promote awareness of reason, provide a place where people can discuss, hold film fests and meetups. But its organizers don’t expect their members to be doing some kind of missionary work to preach atheism. It’s just up to the members what they want to do. Some members are tolerant of religion, including me (because I think religion is a psychological need to some people) so members like those obviously do not go “preach”. Others are zealots, yes. The group has a whole lot of various people in it with varying convictions and points of views.”
why do you keep insisting that it’s imposing and preachy?? why do you keep insisting that its just a support group?? are my explanations very difficult for you to grasp??
Again, I have no problems when atheists/agnostics flocking. I find it absurd, yes- like fraternities/sororities.
Generally, if you have a life (and self-esteem) you won't need one.
As the discussion grew- did I say the FF was preaching? I think I was careful to use atheists.
You were the one who implied in FB that that FF had a goal of spreading logic and curbing superstition.
Do your zealots really advocate reason and logic? and may I ask how? Or do they just debate on the existence of god?
My 3 points still stand. bash them already….
someone? anyone?
“Again, I have no problems when atheists/agnostics flocking. I find it absurd, yes- like fraternities/sororities.
Generally, if you have a life (and self-esteem) you won’t need one.”
The reason why we congregate is the same as why friends would flock together – we enjoy each other’s company, and we enjoy discussing related topics under a common roof.
It’s a venue for airing out opinions and insight on the matter, a place where most of us can be free of the usual stigma most of us experience if for example we belong to highly religious communities.
What I find absurd is that you don’t seem to get the whole point of people with common interests who decide to meet up and just talk.
On the contrary, people with lives are exactly those who enjoy going out and meeting with their friends on a regular basis.
“You were the one who implied in FB that that FF had a goal of spreading logic and curbing superstition.”
If that were true, is that really a problem? Is destroying superstitions really all that wrong for you? Is telling people that faith healings do more harm than good really that offensive, or calling out bullshit when a pastor uses their religion to demonize other minorities crossing the line on “respecting beliefs?”
The problem is that most religious institutions are given a degree of self-entitlement, where nobody dares question them on why their worship should simply be followed blindly.
Respect should be earned, and as far as I have seen in the news I see regularly, organizations such as the Catholic Church and Islam in general aren’t deserving of such respect.
Well, at least no more deserving of respect than Aesop’s fables or the Grimm Brother’s collection, but then again, when have you heard of anybody ever killing in the name of Snow White?
“Do your zealots really advocate reason and logic? and may I ask how? Or do they just debate on the existence of god?”
You’re more than welcome to visit our forums if you’d like to find out.
Aside from discussions on religion, we also post various topics regarding matters of critical thinking and logic. There are also the assortment of science, current events and nerd-ish topics (War Machine COSPLAYER!!!), but I digress.
On another note, when was the last time an atheist pointed a gun to your head and told you to renounce your faith? You keep calling us zealots and fanatics, when all I see is a very, very bitter and obnoxious man who has resorted to strawmen argument to make our group look all the more militant than we actually are.
As for the actual prose…
@Sathepine,
A little too literal for my tastes, but I appreciate the effort 🙂
Now if you don’t mind some suggestions, there’s another skeptic’s blog that’s always full of funny and creative limmericks. You might find some really good ideas from there.
http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/
Hi, take it easy on me. Be nice 🙂 I somehow understand.
Are you talking about these 3 points?
“1. Atheists caring about religion doesn’t make sense. Atheists should be beyond religion.”
Face it, Christians don’t care about atheists. So why care about them? Christians know atheists are there but they just tolerate you except for a few who want to destroy you. Your family just tolerates you and your ideas. Are you going to accept just being tolerated? You have to become a person unto yourself before you can make them notice you. Now you go looking to a support group for support because of the pressure of renouncing religion which is ok for awhile. While in this support group everybody is doing what they were doing individually which is to bash religion.
I can say most atheists are still looking for the christian majority to agree with them before they can finally rest but that is never going to happen so don’t count on it. We are always looking at what the christians are doing instead of not bothering with them. Let them destroy themselves.
“2. Atheists preaching/proselytizing doesn’t make sense.”
The beginnings of an atheist is hard but that is just the way it is. You can’t turn people away from their beliefs that are ingrained in their minds unless he/she already is going through a change themselves. Religion is their life. What makes you think they are going to trust an Org with something so important. It’s like going to a pastor for advice.
“3. Being an atheist doesn’t make you a target of harassment. You’re a target because you’re weak.”
Majority of the population just act, they don’t think. Thinking requires understanding. And i can say atheists try to understand others too much. If not that then, they are thinking about the existence of God? Trying to understand why someone does what they do distracts you from acting upon it.. We always ask if we should do it or not, if it is right or wrong. And when we hurt others, we feel guilty. Other people will just attack you for no reason and forget that it ever happened. So be tough.
Uhmm… I don't know how to react to this.
just one point. "I can say most atheists are still looking for the christian majority to agree with them before they can finally rest but that is never going to happen so don’t count on it."
Oh how you look down on atheists!!!
I would like to believe that most atheists don't care whether the christian majority agrees with them.
Caring what others think? That's a children's book topic.
"I would like to believe that most atheists don’t care whether the christian majority agrees with them."
Christianity, because they are the majority, are the same group of people atheists want to turn into atheists in order for them to finally succeed. That's why atheists made it their mission to refute religion. So they care about christianity joining them.
Sorry my mind is really a mess.
I am beginning to think you are trying to stereotype atheists. Not all atheists are apathetic. Not all atheists SHOULD be apathetic. In my own opinion.
(And please don't respond with "real atheists should be apathetic" again unless you can provide proof that you have authority to officially declare what "real atheists" are.)
BYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
Dean, why don't you submit an article here on what your idea of the ideal atheist should be?
You're beginning to sound like a prescriptive facist. Too bad that your a namesake of Howard.
BYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!
to clarify, based on my correspondence with dean on facebook (he replied just recently), he firmly believes that real atheists and agnostics should be unaffected by religion and its effects, and that is why he considered this group to be “weak” and a group of “posers”. his mind is not yet evolved enough to fathom the concept of a concerned atheist. i don’t know yet if he thinks that promoting reason, logic, critical thinking, intellect, etc is worthless, but it seems he thinks that way. but i inquired on that and still waiting for his response on that.
basically, he’s harmless. just stupid.
ho-hum again. first, real atheists and agnostics aren't affected by religion (then again maybe weak ones are). Personally, I know of dozens of agnostics and atheists (at least two)- and guess what? no support group.
Your little support group can't claim to be the majority. just because you proselytize. Most agnostics and atheists are beyond that.
As for reason and logic- go ahead and advocate that- it's like advocating peace. but don't be proselytizing the lack of a god. it's just demeaning. not to the audience- but to yourselves.
not evolved enough? you're the guys that needed a support group.
ho-hum
ok
ohh witty nice.
The only sin in my world sir – is being weak. in spirit foremost.
I mean self esteem and not the divine. church indeed. although i do like to be worshiped now and again….
There are so many muslims in this world- and maybe a few thousand extremists. you can't help but hate the extremists even if you are a muslim yourself.
so too with christians and christian zealots.
(by the way… you guys are the zealots, but most likely just posers)
Congregating atheists are ok (sad maybe but ok) – when they begin to preach – then it becomes contradictory.
Preaching atheists? That reminds me of a church. pray much?
“It’s a bird!”
“No, it’s a plane”
“NO! It’s the super-atheist, Zarathustra… Oh wait, it’s just some dude keyboard cos-playing Nietzsche.”
stop spaking, I mean speaking high-philosophese 😛
I can hardly catch up with all the literary references
Dustin, you seem to know Nietzsche. Isn’t it playing strong and powerful a call to will power? The strong will alone is capable of fighting, conquering and ruling.
I can’t reconcile your so-called “keyboard cos-playing Nietzsche” for anyone asserting superiority, justified or not.
aaah here he is again…he really cares…
ill just copy paste.
Dustin… yes. oh you have more substance here. keyboard cosplaying? did i sound like nietz? i’m sorry. your post didn’t even add anything to the discussion. so sorry for saying it had substance. It didn’t.
Igme. of course i care- but you get it wrong. i care not whether you guys are insecure atheists or posers. it seems very clear to me.
read the first reply (other thread). i care because i like squishing ants.
so yes. i do care. it’s fun.
Actually, the point I was trying to make was that you're a loser and a jerkl; just some pseuodo-philosopher douche who craves attention and gets off on saying how superior he is because mommy smacked him around one too many times.
Yeah, substance my ass.
You're the loser. You're seeking validation and attention from the very group you are trying to insult, criticize, or hate-on.
haha dean they are playing with you lol! don’t get flustered!
“battle your points and ideas” ?? lol what points and ideas? you’re not even making counter arguments, just insults. your points and ideas are shallow and just repeating endlessly seemingly to emphasize your superiority and you don’t respond to the arguments against your points, except with “the only sin for me is weakness” and “nothing bothers me because nothing can” as if you’re copying some anime villain or something cheesy like that (yes, i am echoing some points of my recent reply to you in facebook). this is a group of intellectuals but you don’t seem like one so you are here because…? it’s seems you like and enjoy the fuss you’ve created and all the attention on you.. so you like it here. oh goody! something for the guys to play with! don’t get flustered, okay?
first i insulted igme because he deserved it.
ho hum. for the slow- here are the points.
1. Atheists caring about religion doesn't make sense. Atheists should be beyond religion.
2. Atheists preaching/proselytizing doesn't make sense.
3. Being an atheist doesn't make you a target of harassment. You're a target because you're weak.
and missy. I'm not bothered. I'm just waiting for the (so-called) intellectuals to appear (kudos wes – that's respect not sarcasm).
When you want serious discussion (which I hope your group also wants)- shouldn't the riffraff stay at the side? Unless that's all the members of your group (not you wes)?
Highly intellectuals? Prove it. So far it seems you have 1 intellectual- the rest act like trollbait.
and you probably haven't realized but – I'm the one playing.
@Dean: The others simply do not have the interest to join this discussion with you – and your utter stupidity – because you clearly don’t understand what you’re talking about. If you want to know more about this group, go read the About Us page. Otherwise, shut up. And to think that you don’t even seem to understand the difference between freethought and atheism. What you only know are the drivels – all kinds false assumptions – concocted by your mediocre mind.
My points still stand. bash them already.
And yes. I’m bashing the atheists and agnostics that proselytize yes. the others… do they proselytize too?
no intellectual discussion with you. enlighten me please.
you’re acting like trollbait.
worse. your acting like INC leaders- when faced with a legit debate. I guess you guys ARE like the church.
Your points are based on the false assumption that we are all atheists who bonded together trying to convert people into atheism. Until you realize that this is not the case (I presume that either you have not read the About Us page or simply did not understand it), I see no point in discussing with you and your bloated ego that is hugely disproportionate to your stunted cognitive capacity.
perhaps you taught them to well to be indifferent?
If you think that Dean has a “mediocre mind”, it is presumptuous in assuming that your mind is less mediocre. You said that Dean is working on false assumptions, right? Would it be more reasonable to correct his false assumptions instead of attacking his ideas as “utter stupidity”. Look who’s talking!
I hold that freethinkers are not exclusively associated with atheists and agnostics. I call myself as a Christian freethinker. Since I actively engaged myself in dialogue with fellow Christians, I am more in tuned with the progressive voices within the Catholic church.
Exactly. It’s there in the About Us page:
“Freethought is not the same as atheism. Freethinking is a way of thinking that can lead to different conclusions. Although most freethinkers are nontheistic — atheists, agnostics, deists — many freethinkers still reach religious conclusions. However, theistic freethinkers do tend to have more liberal or progressive religious views than other believers.”
Welcome to Filipino Freethinkers, Nomadic Gadfly. 🙂
thanks bro.
"1. Atheists caring about religion doesn’t make sense. Atheists should be beyond religion.
2. Atheists preaching/proselytizing doesn’t make sense.
3. Being an atheist doesn’t make you a target of harassment. You’re a target because you’re weak."
like i said, they don't make sense to you because your mind is not yet evolved enough.
Well those are my points. refute them with your evolved mind please.
go go go buddy! teach that FPJ wanna be who’s boss!
i've already refuted them, when i responded to your facebook message. i will copy and paste, okay?
============
"you think that atheists should not be affected by religion? by definition, atheists do not believe in god – the definition does not include being unaffected. a lot of atheists are affected by what religion does to people. they want to stop or prevent it. open your eyes. "
you are saying that atheists being affected by religion is weak, correct? and you are saying that atheists who are affected by religion are posers, correct? so they shouldn't be called "atheists"? but they do not believe in god, which, by definition, is called "atheism". so they should be called "atheists". you just have some kind of standard as to what atheists should be (and that is, they should be unaffected by the effects of religion), but you shouldn't impose that standard on people. you do not own the term "atheist" and have no right to say that people who do not believe in god (and are therefore called atheists) are "atheists posers".
============
you did not respond to these points. the major point is, what gave you the right to claim what "real atheists" are?
i've already explained to you so many times what the group is trying to promote and why it makes a lot of sense and why it is worthwhile. you keep saying they don't make sense but you don't give any rebuttals as to why they don't make sense to you. you just say they "don't make sense". is that your big intellectual counter-argument? ^_^;
i actually agree with your statement "you're a target because you're weak" but i've already admitted to you that i WAS weak back then and i WAS in need of a support group and you can look down on me for it as much as you want but i'm not really ashamed of it because it made me learn so many things, most especially learning to stand up for myself.
you might consider the group being affected by religion as "weak" but there is no shame in it (in my opinion) because the group is promoting worthwhile things and providing a platform for intellectual discussions regarding freethinking. you are in a phase of your life where you might have the luxury of only thinking for yourself and the only thing that matters is you and your opinions. but the people in this group are not in that phase anymore and there is a concern about what is happening out there. and that is what all the discussions and stuff are all about in here.
you have not answered my question. what is your stand on promoting reason, logic, critical thinking, and intellect as opposed to superstition? do you find it pointless, wrong, or weak, by any chance? if so, please respond with your arguments. this is where i wanted the discussion to go, not the same "it doesn't make sense" and "weakness is the only sin" arguments you keep repeating because those have already been covered. explain why they don't make sense. explain the sinfulness of being weak. you have done neither.
you really love us…. 🙂
Hi Dean. So sorry if you don't like my writing or found my thoughts too basic for your advanced thinking. I'm not in college anymore LOL But in college I was actually in need of a support group (and found none). In grade 4 I was too busy obeying God's orders in my Catholic school and writing poems about angels to come about realizing all these points HEHEHE. I was brought up with strict parents (high school curfew 6pm, college curfew 7pm), including a very close-minded super devout Catholic mom. You should feel lucky you realized those points early at Grade 4, but you shouldn't look down on people who aren't as lucky as you. Philippine culture is heavily influenced by the Catholic faith. It's sometimes very difficult being so different from family, friends, and relatives who prioritize faith above reason. A group like this would have helped me back then. But for you, I guess, it seems you somehow got by just fine, congrats. (By the way, my post reflects my thoughts only and not the whole group's.)
I'm sorry for being harsh. It was uncalled for. I am an ass.
I regret being so callous- I was just outraged at congregating atheists and agnostics. I regretted posting (Site host please delete. or let it stay to show what an ass I am).
Anyway, I too was raised in a Catholic home… I deleted two paragraphs worth of life story because it seemed inappropriate and a little tedious.
My problem is not with your "faith" – it's your lack of it. (reading my reply on the "Calling all freethinkers" post should clear things)
And I don't look down on you- I look down on everyone. and yes, it is sad sometimes. but being cruel to people who deserve it- raises my spirits. i am a very happy person. bot you don't deserve the cruelty.
Your support group does though. Read my reply (to the said thread)- then tell me I'm wrong.
hehehe i appreciate your apology and your honesty. and i think you’re wrong. i sent you a reply in facebook (and i think it’s actually longer than your message lol) and it has some explanations there and hopefully you’ll see why i think you’re wrong about the group (but remember i’m no spokesperson for the group) and about atheists/agnostics in general.
“And I don’t look down on you- I look down on everyone.” honestly, in my opinion, i think a lot of people in this group have the same attitude, at least towards the religious. it’s one thing i don’t like. but that’s just me. sorry guys.
it's not the same attitude. They're being bigots. I'm universal- hence no bigotry.
That's what happens when you put people with low self esteem in a mob. believe me- they just act like they're better than people with religion – emphasis on act.
at the risk of sounding a bit bigoted yourself, you might want to be a bit more specific than merely throwing around word like “they” or “your org”. gross over-generalizations is bigotry in-and-of-itself, as if you have divine omniscience to actually know for a fact that everyone here thinks and acts the same.
and the very notion of self-superiority, this “They’re being bigots. I’m universal- hence no bigotry.” is ironically a bigoted statement itself… this “my way is correct, yours is not” attitude is a hallmark of non-tolerance that a one-track minded person would have.
if you get your kicks from putting other people down, trolling, and telling other people that you don’t approve of what they do with their lives, then I’m sorry but you have no right to call yourself un-bigoted.
Apparently, you look down on everyone by default.
Do you find Schadenfreude orgasmic, Dean?
only when it is the weak that suffer. and by weak- i mean people who have low self-esteem and act all superior.
Did I hit the mark The Dean Scream?
I don’t get what your problem is. You perceive us to be a group of weak people in need of support or something based merely on the fact that we congregate, and because of this you feel the express desire to announce that, what, you’re better than us because you don’t need a group?
I’m also not sure if your arrogance stems your being a believer or being a nonbeliever with no need for groups. Which is it? Do you belong to the One True Church? Or are you perhaps among the “real atheists and agnostics” we give a “bad rap” to by congregating?
From your comment above it seems you’re the latter, but you reek of a Higher Moral Ground for some reason, which makes me think of a church.
@Frank: not a traditional church but a phallocentric religion designed to turn basement dwellers into self-righteous zealots devoted to the worship of a dead soviet hag.
Have you looked into a mirror lately?
BYAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!
My adrenalin gushed forth to its highest rate upon reading your previous post. Good that you realized your mistake and apologized.
That’s it? A college student and that’s your thoughts woven in prose? I realized all of your points when I was in grade 4 – and I think I even wrote better.
Agnostics and Atheists who congregate? Why the need? People like your group make real atheists and agnostics look bad.
Posers in need of a support group.
Don't make a fool out of yourself.
Dean, what's your age when you were in grade 4? I refused to think that you're now in grade 5 or 6.
I would rather give my utmost respect to non-believers who are trying to express themselves in poems, in letters, in articles, or in dissertations. Each of us has our own story to tell.
Even the pope in his old age needs a support group. Why can't people who "lost faith" do the same? Is God so vengeful as to punish the unbelievers by denying them that basic right for self-organization?
If you think that you're a better poem writer than the thread starter, wouldn't it be more prudent to keep it to yourself? Well, the basic demand is to walk your talk. Write a poem here.
So what's the point in defining God? What's the point of having the word or term or concept "God" in the life of man? What is definition then?
Nice… ^^
hi Sathepine nice poetry..hope to read from you more..