If the deity exists, would you believe he’s a god of love or a god that’s indifferent to the people’s affairs in life? Well, the evidence is everywhere and you’ll just have to open your eyes or mind for you to answer such a question. Since we can’t really pre-determine his existence beyond reasonable doubt, let’s just say – for the sake of the article’s argument – he exists. Then, that starts the questions that would flood the father-figure like, why does he prefer to hide in a shell or watch in a so-called heaven without resolving the ultimate question that would have offended any god – does he exist?
Why would he let a book like the Holy Bible be the people’s reference to his whims, rules and laws, dreams or ambitions, preferences, etc. when the book (which consists of mini-books) would tell you something like “believe in God and you’ll go to heaven; don’t believe and you’ll be burned in eternal fire.” Robert Ingersoll said it best when he said “the hope of theology is salvation of few and damnation of almost everyone.” Why should he impose such a warning on people? What’s in the back of his mind or what clouded his brain (if he has brains or something like that) for wanting such? Is the Holy Bible really his work or is it just a mere compilation of books created by some ancient essayists and false prophets? If the Holy Bible is indeed his work (and that is if he exists) then bear with me when I say to that deity, “Shame on you!”
I feel this way because of the questions that would go on forever with things that would bug him like: Why did you create a couple of humans perfectly yet they’re susceptible to being persuaded by the Devil in the Garden of Eden? Is that what you would call perfect? Is that what you would call “created in your own image”? Why is it that both Adam and Eve were naked yet they’re indifferent to each other’s body before they committed the so-called Original Sin? Was this couple the earliest naturalists? Would they have had copulation before committing the sin? If they weren’t into having sex before committing that so-called sin, then does it mean they wouldn’t have reproduced and they’ll be a lone couple forever? I’m saying such because the Bible calls lust a sin and if there’s no lust, realistically there shouldn’t be sex. I’m not misunderstanding the Bible as what religious bigots would say – I’m just seeing what it really meant based on reason and logic.
What about today? Have you seen the people in Africa who don’t have enough drinking water, which is the most essential matter to humans next to oxygen? Have you noticed the children in third world countries of whom no parents can even take care? Have you heard the cries of anguish of those people afflicted with cancer, AIDS, deadly viruses, leukemia, hepatitis, tuberculosis and so forth? Do you prefer to just watch those women in Somalia being stoned to death after being severely gang-raped? Can you do something to the little girls who were being raped and tortured for days before being murdered? (If you know nothing of these yet, don’t be lazy, they’re all on reliable media outlets like Huffingtonpost.com.) Do you prefer to let them just suffer and punish the culprits on a certain judgment day? Are you that cold, selfish, insensitive and indifferent or is it simply that you, God, don’t exist at all, not once, not twice but none of your likes existed?
A God with a capital “G” would have been all-powerful and would have just remade the errors of his creation. A God that isn’t all-powerful, all-encompassing and all-knowing is useless and shouldn’t be thought about at all because he’s not even a god (with a small “g”).
Is the theory that he indeed created the universe as creationists would force on you – but died afterwards, having some a bit of sense? Why don’t we just count on evidence and on the sensible, reasonable and worthwhile things? Why are we caring that much about a supreme being when he doesn’t even give a shit, might have died or most likely doesn’t exist? Why don’t we just care about the beings that are more important in the here and now like our family, loved ones or even friends?
This is why I’m not seeing any logic and seriousness in the statement that the love of God is above all for the reason that it’s just plain nonsense. It’s just the perfect example of unrequited love. You know what might be sad but sanely true? As normal human beings, we actually love ourselves first then preferably love those who deserve our love as well.
@Miguel
Sorry if I was unclear, but you've answered my questions quite fairly.
About you missing the part of me disapproving the existence of a god. I have question in relation to that.
Why would a god be vague about his reasons on inflicting/letting pain come to a person? I said vague because if a god was clear of his intentions to make someone better, that person suffering pain wouldn't have the time to question a god's purpose of giving him pain in the first place. Couldn't he just appear infront of me telling me he exists and this pain will make me holy?
Offtopic. Are you from Australia? Just curious. 🙂
What do you think would happen if God appeared in front of everyone and told them he existed so they better keep straight? Everyone would act differently –they would be somewhat compelled to.
You're question is a variation of the question on the hiddenness of God. I do think that God doesn't make His presence overwhelming so as not to force a kind of contrived relationship on us; one that we might actually resent. If one wants to ignore God, He makes it possible, but for one who wants to seek Him He has provided sufficient ways to come to knowledge of Him.
Also, in the Christian worldview at least, God responded to pain. What did He do? He went with us and suffered. This was to show that He is with us in our pain. (I'm skipping a lot of steps to get to this point, but I think it's worth mentioning still)
No, I'm not from Australia, and I'm curious to know why you would think I am? =)
@Miguel
I'm still missing the part about clinically insane people inflicting pain to others.
I can't argue about free will, you were very clear about that.
Pain does make people better, stronger and wiser. But I think your explaination on the purpose of suffering pain missed a practical issue. And that is pain causing people to be emotionally scarred for life. Sane individuals who does'nt necessarily inflict pain to others is suffering unbearable effect of a traumatic pain. Depression, Insomnia are just some. Where will you put freewill to a wasted life of an insane person? Is one persons involuntary suffering worth it to teach another of a life's lesson?
I'm missing the part where that shows a loving God cannot exist. Are you talking about the sane or insane? You've oscillated between the 2 categories 3 times in one post.
Are you asking about the purpose of the pain of clinically insane people, or of sane people who have something akin to "depression/insomnia", or the pain that clinically insane people inflict on others? With respect, your question seems a bit vague and not well expressed.
I'll assume for a minute that you're asking what the purpose of pain — that is of the sort that makes someone "emotionally scarred for life" — is. Again, you argue as if one necessarily follows the other. As though a certain amount of pain necessarily entails a life-long emotional scarring. (What exactly do you mean when you say "emotionally scarred for life" anyhow?) But it simply doesn't. An egregious result of that sort would be dependent on a lot of things, on the psychology of the person, on his cultural background, and so forth. I don't see why the 'free-will' thing doesn't answer this as well, considering that people are a result of all those choices ( whether seemingly negligible or not) that they make in their lives.
If you're asking where the justice is in an insane person who is suffering from a "wasted life". I have to say that that's your subjective opinion. Why is his life "wasted"? Because he can't do the things that you will find worthwhile? I have no doubt that on naturalism IT IS WASTED –since our goal in life on that worldview is to survive and replicate. But NOT in the Christian worldview. There are many people who, although live lives that most will find worthless, are happy and content. But to call such a life "wasted" is an opinion.
A world where there is pain is for the good (as I've explained earlier) but pain itself is only good insofar as it can make people better. But because of free-will, some people can use that pain either to become better, or to justify evil.
[But because of free-will, some people can use that pain either to become better, or to justify evil. ]
Religion is just as easily – if not more often – used as an excuse.
"Religion is just as easily – if not more often – used as an excuse."
— Nice how you say that as though it succeeds in making the points I've made less valid.
My apologies then – This isn't a discussion I should be meddling with.
@Miguel
Sorry, let me reiterate.
What then is the purpose of pain if it leads to insanity and consequently infliction of pain to others.
You were very clear on what Free will is. But correct me if Im wrong if I said that I missed the part when you answered the reason of pain if it drives some0ne to Suicide and insanity.
"I don't think any kind of pain would necessarily lead someone to those things."
I incidentaly been witnessed to the causality of pain. That is why I hope you take my word for it.
Pain is needed to make better people. I thought I was clear on that. I used possible world semantics on my first post to explain the relativity of pain. If you imagine a world where pain scarcely is able to reach the levels that people in the actual world can experience, you would have a very different conceptualization of pain; every trip of the foot would bring unbearable pain since it would be one of the most painful things that can happen to you. To expect God to remove all pain would thus be ridiculous when framed this way, because it can start getting ridiculous. And to have zero pain is to have every single thing you want — I don't need to expound on why such a world would be the worst possible one if you wanted to create a holy and moral people.
If a certain amount of pain brought someone to commit suicide or to inflict pain on others, then that person is doing those things out of his own volition –his own free-will.
Your question would make more sense if, say, suicide necessarily followed such and such amount of pain. But it doesn't. So pain is never an excuse to commit suicide, or to harm others. Nevertheless, your choice in doing so would be your own fault and not God's.
"Pain is needed to make better people."
I think there's a big problem somewhere in there. I also hope you are not in a person of authority that has opportunity to have this principle put into practice. You know, to inflict pain on others. (policeman, jail warden, Catholic Inquisitor, Jihadists, etc.)
Pain is a given but I doubt it's neceessary to make better human beings. And I sure hope my kids will never bump into you.
That's because you see things so narrowly. When I said pain makes better people, you immediately thought that I like making people feel pain –which is downright stupid.
Nice Job.
So God probably doesn't exist on account of the many natural disasters and what have you. I think the poster hasn't had any encounter with Christian theology of whatever sort. Because if he did, he would've already known that the problem of evil has already been answered centuries ago. If he thinks the answers aren't sufficient, then he could've had more credibility if he listed at least some of them down with their corresponding refutations.
It's really amusing how new atheists think they know so much about the very thing they so vehemently despise.
//the problem of evil has already been answered centuries ago//
Care to post the answer here?
Care to post your reason on why the occurrence of so and so natural disasters disproves the existence of a loving God here?
You have kids? Funny how kids feel that that first vaccine shot is the worst pain they could possibly experience. The adult however knows that it's for the child's own good. If God stopped all pain, at what point does it become ridiculous? If we never experienced pain at the level we currently experience them, don't you think every trip of the foot would be the worst pain we could possibly experience? So at what point does it become ridiculous? Must God guide our feet every time it touched the floor too? Isn't it slightly painful whenever we do not get what we want? If we never experience any physical pain whatsoever, than our inability to get what we want would be the worst possible pain ever. Imagine a world where you are arguing that a loving God couldn't possibly exist because you seem to be unable to get everything you want.
The existence of natural evil isn't logically incompatible with a loving God — especially in the Christian worldview.
What then is the purpose of pain when it leads someone to suicide, to insanity, to inflict pain onto others?
Does pain necessarily lead to suicide, insanity or to the infliction of pain to others? Is one contingent on another? It would be odd if you really believed this. I don't think any kind of pain would necessarily lead someone to those things.
Let's keep it simple first; the infliction of pain on others.
If, say, you wanted someone to be holy and moral, you would have to give him free-will. Morality is dependent on free-will. We don't say a tree is being generous for providing us with fruit –it's not like it could withhold it's production of fruit from us in the first place. There is a reason why bacterium cannot be said to be moral, since it does not have the ability to ponder on the rightness or wrongness of an act. Creating someone who is not a free-willed agent, yet is already holy and moral would be as illogical as creating a married bachelor.
Because of free-will, anyone has the capacity to go against God's will. If you wanted to kill and torture people, that's your fault not God's. And with respect to the person who's being inflicted with pain, I've already explained a variation of the theodicy on pain above.
Anyone else?
[If you wanted to kill and torture people, that's your fault not God's.]
Religious extremists come to mind.
"Religious extremists come to mind"
— I take it you're arguing that religious extremism is the fault of religion. That's as ridiculous as saying eugenics is the fault of science. Faulty thinking is the fault of faulty thinkers.
Or maybe you weren't saying anything of the sort I just accused you of, then I'm sorry.
There you go; Christian worldview. It's not the humankind’s view but "the Christian worldview". Your views are tolerable but there's more evidence on the non-existence of God than the existence of such a being. True or not, a God is just a father-figure that people thought of. I'd rather just think and reminisce on my natural father whose deceased but undeniably existed.
[there's more evidence on the non-existence of God ]
— Really? I thought lack of evidence was what atheism was predicated on? What is this evidence for the "non-existence of God" that you speak of?
Let me just quote myself here; "No, God exists and he's cruel, apathetic and childish! Yes, God doesn't exist because I know how to think on my own brain."
God doesn't exist because you know how to think on your own brain? You really are a free-thinker. In that you think so freely, no matter how illogical.
Read my article again and you'll see that I don't really give a shit even if you're stupid God exist!
O.K. You don't have to tell me what you give or don't give a shit about, since I don't give a flying fuck either way.
No, God exists and he's cruel, apathetic and childish! Yes, God doesn't exist because I know how to think on my own brain.
Let me extend my condolences to the families of those who died in Japan's cataclysmal tsunami and earthquake.
Right. Free-thinking at it's finest. Thinking freely notwithstanding the constraints of logic.
I came from a very religious family but as I was growing up, I realized that there was something wrong with 'God'. I asked the same to myself that if God is all-powerful and loving, why would he let all these tragedies to good people? They say that they are part of the trials. Why would he try us with such pains and sorrow? Even babies die young. Why should they have to die so soon?
True Christians are good people. No doubt about that. Jesus' teachings shaped the goodness of the Christian people. To me, Jesus Christ have existed. But I do not believe that he is a son of the so-called God. Nor he have risen from the dead and have gone to heaven. To me, he may have lied claiming that he is a son of God. Well, god (with a small 'g'). Or, what was it?
You dont understand : god moves in mysterious ways !!!
And instead of slaughter an oxen, sprinkle the blood around the altar and burn the inner organs to please god (YHWH, Jehova, The Lord) humans make him angry and now have to endure his wrath materializing in earthquakes, tsunamis etc….
You miserable twat. Hundreds of people recently died in New Zealand and thousands of people are currently dying in Japan… you're calling it the wrath of YOUR God? Earthquakes happen as a natural occurrence on our planet. Stop preaching and do something constructive to help your fellow humans. Wouldn't your God prefer you to help out your cuzzies instead of making judgements online?
You just proved Poe's Law! 🙂
Where's the "winking smiley" when you need it hey? I feel a bit silly now. 😛
And indeed thousands of human beings killed and millions are hit with hardship once again by an earthquake and the following tsunami, and you put the right question up : where was god ??
Never got an answer from theist thou, despite of tons of theodicy’s — all ending up finally in "the mysterious ways" defence.
Even the naming of an entire city in the name of the savior Christ to 'Christchurch' is not helping to please the trinity Yahweh = Christ = Holy Spirit to spare the City of Christ and even the Cathedral tumbled down burring dozens of worshippers.
Maybe the all good & all loving & all powerful deity does not care or does not exist at all…..
a thought which surprisingly does not come often to the mind of brainwashed theists thou.
Some people would (aside from loosely quoting the bible) tell you that god (and his action or inaction) is too complex for the human mind to comprehend. Which will raise another question that if he is real, couldn't he make us more or absolutely understanding of him, comprehensive of his plans? Because if he did people wouldn't even have time to make up other ideologies.