It was inevitable. Oft it’s been said, an idle mind is the devil’s workshop, so I knew if I’d be cooped up in the house for 1-2 months then invariably, I’d be thinking about this. After all, in that litany of “R” words I’d written as my goals for this period of rest, “repent” was sure to be on the list. Or it could be that watching 24 episodes of “Supernatural” (esp. this latest season dealing with the Apocalypse) made me think about my faith and where my personal relationship with God stands in the scheme of all things that’s happened in my life. And believe it or not, no matter how hedonistic I might seem to purport at times in the pursuit of life’s pleasures, my faith, and the quest of it, has always been an important facet of who I am. So here goes…
I believe sometimes our mass, or Sunday church services, could better be improved at times. Far be it from me to tinker with centuries-old Catholic tradition, but truthfully, born-again, or evangelical Church services are way more alive and spiritual at times than our staid, stiff, and sometimes alienating Catholic mass. Still, having said that, a traditional part of our ceremony I find sacred is the saying of the Apostles Creed. It makes sense for any believer, to state what one accepts to be part of one’s faith. But here’s my personal take on that, my own set of principles in the faith.
(1) I believe in God. That much is made clear. For many reasons really, and the purpose of this note is certainly not to cite all my reasons why, or to prove that God exists. And boy, I’ve gone on that actual quest myself, even reading a book “God’s Questionable Existence” by Fr.Reilly(of course a Jesuit!) that makes for a compelling read by the way. But one, critical reason I believe is: I’m a Mom. It’s as simple as that. I mean, really, any mother, or parent who’s ever held a sick child in her arms can attest to how much faith you suddenly realize you have, when faced with the reality that you don’t control anything, and then, having faith in a higher power makes so much sense. When you have kids, you start praying…a lot! From: “Lord please help me find the money for the milk, diapers (or substitute with: tuition, kids’ braces, the list is endless) to “Lord, please help me find my son” (when my autistic child was lost in the mall for 15 long minutes, the longest 15 minutes of my life), to “Lord, please don’t let this scar my daughter for life” (on my failed marriage). Let me tell you, when one prays, one believes.
(2) Love moves in mysterious ways, as the song goes. Or rather God does, not love (but then God is love!). We live in a world where, bad things happen to good people and often we question whether God is really present in a world where evil exists (and oftentimes win!). A book I read once “Why Bad Things Happen to Good People” (I told you I’ve done extensive research as part of my faith journey) said that God has no control over things that happen. I don’t think so. It’s tricky really, for it’s true that you can’t absolve God for all the atrocities that happen in this world. That’s what you get for giving man free will in the first place. Or for even putting that tree in the middle of Paradise (Lord, what were you thinking?!). It doesn’t make sense at all. Why He lets bad things happen. Coz, I can’t just credit God for the good things, and not let him be responsible for also the bad things. It’s all or nothing. Yet, I believe, it’s all part of His grand masterplan. That’s an integral part of what faith is. It’s the hope in things not seen. I think, the one flaw of Paradise was that you can’t really be sure if you love someone, if things are too perfect. And so, God, in his infinite love, risked it by giving us the choice, and so we all have to find our way back to Him. Of our own accord.
(3) I’m a bad girl. But God is good, all the time. If there’s one thing I concur with my foray into evangelical Christianity, it’s that no amount of good works will entitle you entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. Of course that does not give me license to indulge myself, but it does explain why I say I’m a Christian but still find myself in situations where I can’t muster enough strength and willpower to say no to temptation (Lord, lead me not into temptation,for I can find it myself,haha). I still don’t subscribe to any one religion saying they’re the best and all that, which is why religion ticks of a whole lot of people. I believe, when I die, God is not going to ask me if I was a good Catholic (or substitute any religion here). I don’t know what he’s going to ask really, but I sure think it’s not going to be that. I mean, it has to be more than that. But you do have to keep on trying to be good, to love one’s neighbor, not even as oneself (coz Lord knows the things we do to ourselves at times!). And I do try, admirably, if I may say so myself. So, I’m really a good girl, who just tends to be naughty at times. Yet Santa (or God) still showers me with a whole lot of blessings, not just during Christmas, but throughout the year.
Hey, I’m not religious, but damn, I’m spiritual.
i take evangelical christianity as an indulgent practice. why does worship service need to be entertaining?!
i'm not saying that the catholic church's mass is the only way to salvation. but i do have to say that it is very funny for me that people "convert" to other churches (it's not even a real conversion cuz people don't really change their ways, do they?) simply because they feel bored and alienated by the church they're supposed to be participant in.
i am a nominal catholic and i do sleep during the mass because the mass itself is nothing to me except a tradition i keep for my family. my parents are devout catholics and i find no fault in them being so. i believe in god and in miracles because of how everything in my life has turned out. i don't need to expound on that, i think.
everyday is a miracle. but not straight from a god's hand. rather an echo from billions of years ago.
is it not enough a miracle that you are where you are and you were brought by circumstance, chance, choice to this point where/when you are reading this article and you learn more about life and humanity when/where there were millions of other possibilities?
do good where good is due. avoid evil doing. we will die as we have lived. what happens next is none of our concern. that is my belief.
[…] Losing My Religion […]
[missingpoints says: “ But first, you need to have faith in the Bible that it is God’s word, a revelation of God to mankind”]
Read any book of a serious and HONEST Biblical scholar, study Biblical history at any serious (not fundamentalist) university and you will recognize that the Bible is originally written from uneducated primitive Bronze age goat herders, was massively tempered with, and has more copy errors than words.
Read from beginning (6 days creation by breathing over a formless mass, light before stars, separation from the waters in the sky (clouds) and the oceans, horizon before planet earth was created on page-1 until the last chapter of ‘revelation’ written obviously under drug influence. Flat earth on pillars with archangels on each of 4 corners, Talking snakes, people get 900 years old, God demands the sprinkling of blood as sacrifice, god likes the smell of burnt inner organs of oxen, orders genocidal killing and raping sprees, or kills himself or commands the killing of nearly 3 million people (Satan only 10 victims), and archaeology and history show the entire Abraham to Exodus to Joshua story is pure invented myth.
In the NT even Jesus accepts slavery and slave beating, Saul of Tarsus (Paul) is commanding women to shut up in church matters, you have to self castrate and hate your entire family to be near god. Jesus orders all non believers to be brought up in front of him and killed and so on and on and on ….
Self contradicting even in most important matter how to be saved etc… And because Adam and Eve eat an apple in Eden, god cannot just forgive the original sin, but no he has to fertilize a Jewish virgin girl to bear his son, who is actually god himself, die himself (as son) temporary for 36 hours just to impress himself (as father) and nobody outside the gospel authors (written 50-100 years later) recognize the events, even not the thousand of zombies storming Jerusalem.
All just to forgive sins of humanity – but still all suffering continues, and the second coming as fallback to finally solve it – within the lifetime of apostles – hasn’t happened since 2000 years now .
The Bible is an awful and utterly repugnant book – and the few positive Q-1 stoic/cynic teachings sprinkled randomized over Matthews and Luke’s Gospel are fitting on a single page.
Of course god is a giant pumpkin and you have to have just enough faith in him, sitting in a pumpkin field at midnight on Halloween and pray for his coming. If god is not showing up you haven’t prayed hard enough – have faith – and never forget LOGIC FAIL only FAITH counts !
"Would my proving be helpful to those who do not believe the Bible? I will do it. But first, you need to have faith in the Bible that it is God’s word, a revelation of God to mankind. Unless you do it, giving my explanation would obviously be useless."
Logic FAIL.
just musing around…
speaking of the "sermon of the mount", where did this happen exactly?? did jesus "went up the mountain" to preach or did he "went down on a plain" to preach??
@Roland
Point taken. I believe I missed that reply earlier. My bad 🙁
Matthew (19:12) and Luke (14:26) are from the NT ?!? Not sure which Bible you are looking at …… So to repeat myself according to these NT verses: “” this leaves 2 interpretations: Christians are a self-hating eunuchs who gave away all his belonging to follow the teaching of Jesus, or you are an enormous hypocrites
[Twin-Skies says: "He has been using quotes directly from the New Testament, ergo, may I suggest drawing something from there as well? "]
I thought my earlier quotes from Matthew (19:12) and Luke (14:26) are from the NT ?!? Not sure which Bible you are looking at …… So to repeat myself according to these NT verses: “” this leaves 2 interpretations: Christians are a self-hating eunuchs who gave away all his belonging to follow the teaching of Jesus, or you are an enormous hypocrites””
Beside according to Matthew (5:17) the son of god himself said very clearly it is necessary to live by the law (e.g. the OT) is valid in every single iota and Jesus was coming to fulfill it not to abolish it.
I think we have again some selective quote mining, discard whatever one dislikes, ignore an entire half of the holy book if this suits you better even Jesus states clearly the OT is valid, cherry pick easy to fulfill staff for example how to be saved, and so on and on until hardly anything is left over from the holy book … and then have the gall to blame atheist to be immoral by not following the holy book.
[Twin-Skies says: "Most Christians today don’t abide by the Old Testament Laws anymore “]
Well sprinkle the blood of a sacrifice around, burning the inner organs of a bull to please god Yahweh who likes the smell, and staff like this seems odd in the 21st century. And be obliged to kill adulterers, homosexuals, naughty children etc. will bring you into conflict with current secular laws of the country, secular laws who are despised by many Christians compared to the 'absolute law' of god.
On the other topic here on the front page (immoral atheist) I copied the last and final version (not the common used version) of the 10 commandments. Many Christians in the USA, are fighting hard to install them on every court building in the USA. And this is OT staff. One law of the ‘final’ 10 commandments version is to scarify the first fruits of harvest, the first male offspring of animals and ‘your own firstborn son’ to god.
hey thanks guys for all the comments. I'm excited reading them all. If I'd known I'd get this kind of feedback I'd have long ago posted my notes here instead of just putting them in my FB wall. This is actually my 4th posting here, just that my friend (innerminds) has been kind enough to be my unofficial literary agent & posting them for me <a href="http://(https://filipinofreethinkers.org/2010/01/20/pro-choice-be-safe-by-lenore-laluna/)” target=”_blank”>(https://filipinofreethinkers.org/2010/01/20/pro-choice-be-safe-by-lenore-laluna/). My other notes were "Follow Your Bliss" & "Of Course I Don't Want to Get Married!".I got attracted to this site coz I love the freedom of being to speak (well write) out loud about virtually anything. This was my first treatise actually that touched on religion (a tad on the conservative side) as I have more of a penchant for writing on sexuality, romance & dating mores. So here's to free thinking(& writing!)!
[Vince says: “ All I can do is to laugh. Obviously you quoted a person who have no theological nor hermeneutical background. Yes, the Bible will be contradicting to itself my friend espcially if the one interpreting the Scriptures interprets it all literally and as is without understanding the Bible itself.
I will not explain more of the Bible since it will be a one BIG GIANT topic to discuss. But I can assure you that most if not all of the passages quoted by the article you cited are simply a bunch of misinterpretations. “]
What a poor reply ! The same inconsistencies are highlighted in the writings (of newly agnostics or atheist turned)former staunch evangelical ‘reborn’ Christian preachers and even admitted from (still believing) moderate Christians.
The topic of ‘how to be saved’ was the reason for splits in Christian sects, sub-sect, sub-sub-sects resulting now into 33,000 Christian denominations, all claiming to *know* the really true meaning of scripture, their personal private interpretations of it.
There are different interpretations of Jews (old testament teaching how to be saved), Catholics, Lutheran (only faith counts), Calvinist : Catholics follow the pope e.g. the antichrist and go to hell and god has already chosen the persons to be saved in advance –- hundreds of millions of faithful Christians are following the doctrinal interpretations of their specific faith –- and you Vince discard all this faithful as deluded and wrongly interpreting the holy book and only your sect or you personally know *the truth* !
Vince : you are just cherry picking whatever [b] you [/b] like it to mean,
whatever is suitable for [b] you [/b],
discard every terrible homophobic crap [b] you [/b] personally dislike,
enjoy things that suit [b] you[/b] (good deeds are irrelevant just faith counts, therefore no need to be nice),
discard all hard to fulfill requirements for b] you[/b]
well…..
Mathew 19:12 “and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it”, Luke 14:26 : "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life….
So this leaves 2 interpretations: you are a self-hating eunuch who gave away all his belonging to follow the teaching of Jesus, or you are an enormous hypocrite !
Sorry but this is just what is written in the Bible in a version with properly translation without fancy discarding or re-interpretation to someones own likings each passage as ‘allegorical’ meant differently just to suit your agenda.
"Hmmm… Well, you yourself mentioned of the quantifiability of things. I’m sure you can quantify which one is true and which one is false. "
Vince, the burden of proof lies upon you. You are the one that has stated your religion, derived from the bible, is what is true. Hence it is YOUR move to prove your point, and not toss it on Roland simply because he called your assertion out.
Would my proving be helpful to those who do not believe the Bible? I will do it. But first, you need to have faith in the Bible that it is God's word, a revelation of God to mankind. Unless you do it, giving my explanation would obviously be useless.
"But first, you need to have faith in the Bible that it is God’s word, a revelation of God to mankind."
You will first have to prove that it IS God's word before we believe in it.
I just remembered the rule for that:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You'll have to give hard, conclusive evidence to make your case.
And no – quote-mining from the bible is NOT considered proof.
No. Since it is a matter of historical evidence, which is unavailable, you need faith in order to believe in it.
I just want to impose mine:
If one is to believe in Christ, then he must choose without question the Roman Catholic Church because it is the only Church recognizing Christ as its Founder. No other "Christian" religion is legitimate. Now what we have to question is if Christ was really God's Prophet, if God really did reveal something to us. And if so, we still have to question what was that religion.
As for for me, I will believe.
if you prove it then i won't need any faith, i will know.
Sorry can’t resist : Vince please read also the OT and behave arrordingly :
Lev 21: 18-20 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.
As you are wearing eye-glasses you are clearly excluded from worshipping your god Yahweh, sorry !
And needless to say: as believing Christian you are obliged to kill adulterers, homosexuals and people working a Saturday (Leviticus) are you fulfilling your duty – or is this part also only metaphorical and should be ignored after years of biblical study ?!
I know I am a hopeless case, so please pray for me but don’t forget to scarify some lamb or better burn a bull as its burnt smell is pleasing the Lord or how should this be properly interpreted :
Lev 1:5-9 He is to slaughter the young bull before the LORD, and then Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and sprinkle it against the altar on all sides at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 6 He is to skin the burnt offering and cut it into pieces. 7 The sons of Aaron the priest are to put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. 8 Then Aaron's sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, including the head and the fat, on the burning wood that is on the altar. 9 He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.
Sorry can’t resist : Vince please read also the OT and behave arrordingly :
Lev 21: 18-20 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.
As you are wearing eye-glasses you are clearly excluded from worshipping your god Yahweh, sorry !
And needless to say: as believing Christian you are obliged to kill adulterers, homosexuals and people working a Saturday (Leviticus) are you fulfilling your duty – or is this part also only metaphorical and should be ignored after years of biblical study ?!
I know I am a hopeless case, so please pray for me but don’t forget to scarify some lamb or better burn a bull as its burnt smell is pleasing the Lord or how should this be properly interpreted :
Lev 1:5-9 He is to slaughter the young bull before the LORD, and then Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and sprinkle it against the altar on all sides at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 6 He is to skin the burnt offering and cut it into pieces. 7 The sons of Aaron the priest are to put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. 8 Then Aaron's sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, including the head and the fat, on the burning wood that is on the altar. 9 He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.
Feel free to live by the Law. Sorry, but I want to live by Grace.
Thanks for the info by the way.
Try to read the book of Hebrews and Galatians as well. So that you will see more "contradicting passages" comparing it to what you quoted. And probably, try to make another article exposing these contradictions.:)
Please include in your list Matthew 6-8 which talks about the sermon of the mount.
Roland, he has a point. Most Christians today don't abide by the Old Testament Laws anymore, since they're identified with older Jewish customs.
You only draw it out when a Christian justifies their bias with by quoting those laws, and not before. And from what I have seen, as much as Vince has been debating you, he has yet to quote Leviticus, Judges, and the like as keystones to his faith.
He has been using quotes directly from the New Testament, ergo, may I suggest drawing something from there as well? That's where you real battleground will be 🙂
[Vince says: “Furthermore, it’s not only religion that requires faith. There are many forms of faith. Religious faith is just one form. But you yourself exercises faith like sitting on a chair. You sit on a chair because you believe that the chair can comfort you. You drive a car because you believe it can bring you somewhere. “ ]
I am afraid you use a wrong meaning of the word ‘faith’ : the unwavering belief in something without a scrap of evidence and despite often mountains of contradictions and opposing facts and evidence.
Sitting in a chair does not mean faith but trust in the stability of the material, I can test the possible maximal load, I can sit on it so many times – so gain experience that it was holding my weight Yesterday, I can test for visual structural damage, and using scientific techniques even for internal non visible structure. This has nothing to do with faith !
***Faith, Trust, Belief/Believe …. all these were synomous terms my friend. How can you say you trust yet you do not have faith that you can definitely sit down at the chair? Hope you are getting my point. You sit because you trust that the chair is stable. And because you trust, you have faith that it can carry you. Trust and Faith (the real meaning) cannot be separated from each other. To trust to Jesus is to believe in Jesus, to believe in Jesus is to have faith. As simple as that.
[Vince says: “ For things that you do not see, you believe that there is a wind because you can feel it, but you do not see it. Now we can cite many more examples of faith. ]
I cannot see the wind ?? I can see it pushing the clouds, smoke, fog, I can verifiable measure the wind speed, I can calculate the flow of molecules, the force, with proper technique the wind power can be harnessed (sailing, windturbines), I can see and feel, estimate and verify the often destructive power of the flow of air molecules in storm damage. All this is verifiable evidence, predictable impacts and scientific measurable : e.g. this is not faith !
***That's right, you cannot see it. But you can see other things being moved by it. You can see the clouds being pushed by it, etc… But the question is, can you see the wind? Molecules??? You felt the matter, but not the molecules my friend. Almost all these were theories (which I believe is also correct by the way). But did your quantifiable data have already PROVEN that we humans and the rest of the creatures existed by chance and by accident???You can present all theories that you like be my guest, but the question is, were you able to quantify it??? To verify it???
Now you see, even your own reasonings have flawed too much and I am sure you cannot quantify it. It's just the mystery of life that you want to attribute to science instead of accepting that it is God who authored life and everything that you see.
[Vince says: “ If you are an atheist, you show your faith by believing that there is no God. “]
Oh dear the old chestnut ‘atheism is just another faith …..
There is no verifiable evidence for the existence of any god, as there is no evidence for the existence of Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, goblins in my garden, and a green aswang riding a flying pink unicorns circling at night over my house. So all these wild imaginations without any scrap of slightest evidence are just rejected as unsupported nonsense – this does not require faith in the absence of all possible imaginations !
And the attributes assigned to the Christian deity e.g. omnipotence, omnibenevolence, omnipresence etc… are logical impossible in itself or as combination.
***Refer to my answer above.
[Vince says: “ For if I die and then there is no God, I will lose nothing. But if I believe that there is no God, then when I die I found out that there is God, then I lose everything. “]
You have wasted your entire life – the only one you have – to follow a sin focused misery cult, are afraid of dying for the scare to be grilled for all eternity in hellfire in case you interpreted or did something wrong, you wasted countless hours each day in prayer, wasted scarce financial resources in donations to your wealthy church leader, bending 5 times daily to Mecca in honor of Allah, or sacrifices scarce food to Shiva.
And you wasted your life searching for some imagined deity like someone in a the dark basement, at midnight searching desperate for a black cat that isn’t there. All that in the hope and faith for an imagined afterlife for which there is not a scrap of positive evidence but so much counterevidence for the dualism e.g. the existence of an immaterial imagined entity called soul independent from the brain.
***Do you think your life is wasted when you enjoy something doing it? Do you believe that your life is wasted for trying to prove that there is no God? I am pretty sure that you will answer that your life is not wasted for you have already judged my life that I already have wasted it.
But then again, going back to my question. Do you think your life is wasted when you enjoy the things you are doing and that it is with a purpose?
Well, as a Christian myself, I don't think that it is a waste of life to believe in God, just as you believe that there is no GOd. I enjoy excercising my faith with a purpose and with the hope of second life while you enjoy searching and reasoning that there is no GOd with the hope that there is no second life. What life have been wasted then? I simply believe that I have made a better preparation of what it is to come or "if there will be no second life at all." It's not a waste of life my friend.
And to complete Pascal wager: what if the true god and creator of the universe are the Baal’s or Elohim (gods of the northern tribes of Israel) and not Judean fertility god Yahweh, ‘The Lord’ one of the 70 sons of the most high godfather Elyon, to whom Christians pray ?! Or some other god is in charge like Poseidon, Zeus, Wotan, Osiris, Thor,… any of the thousands of other deities invented from humans ?! What if all their hellfire is waiting for you Vince because you prayed to the nonexistent Yahweh instead of the true god Odin ?!
***Hmmm… Well, you yourself mentioned of the quantifiability of things. I'm sure you can quantify which one is true and which one is false.
[Vince says: “ Grace (Coming from God) + Faith (coming from man) = Salvation “]
Nice cherry picking of Bible quotes, but unfortunately the Bible is very self contradicting about salvation (like for many other topics as well). The criteria are ranging from good deeds, following the 10 commandments (different versions !), just faith in Jesus, god unchangeable pre-selection already before birth (independent whatever you do or believe in your life), finally to the book of revelations : 12 tribes of 12,000 Jewish, dead male virgins are the only ones saved !
Here a link with a wrap up of contradicting Bible verses about salvation : http://www.anatheist.net/2008/12/what-must-we-do-…
****Oh well well, you just quoted an article from an atheist website. I just checked it and read it.
All I can do is to laugh. Obviously you quoted a person who have no theological nor hermeneutical background. Yes, the Bible will be contradicting to itself my friend espcially if the one interpreting the Scriptures interprets it all literally and as is without understanding the Bible itself.
I will not explain more of the Bible since it will be a one BIG GIANT topic to discuss. But I can assure you that most if not all of the passages quoted by the article you cited are simply a bunch of misinterpretations.
"All I can do is to laugh. Obviously you quoted a person who have no theological nor hermeneutical background."
Ahh, the Courtier's Reply.
Tell us Vince – does this mean that if I were to argue against you on the matter of Leperchauns, fairies, and vampires, I must have a matching degree proving I have expert knowledge of such matter?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_reply
In short, we're wrong because we don't "understand" biblical writing?
Obviously the most (if not all) quoted passages from the article that Roland quoted where interpreted literally which clouded your minds concerning Biblical contradictions.
What I am saying is, do not be hasty in believing what was plainly written as an argument. Just as you usually do with Christian belief.
You have been so critical in your judgment on Christianity but hastily accept what was plainly reasoned out of philosophy and literal interpretation. Well, oh yeah… I almost forgot, you were freethinkers.
And what I'm saying is that quite frankly, we don't see what makes your interpretation of the bible any more valid than anybody else's.
You can reason and philosophize it all you want, but in the end, I see it as nothing more than as a book of cobbled together personal accounts that next to no historical validity, and hence should be treated as any other fairy tale.
We can talk about the metaphyysics and juxtaposition of of the Grimm Brothers series too you know, but in the end, it's still a fantasy book.
[Vince says: “Furthermore, it’s not only religion that requires faith. There are many forms of faith. Religious faith is just one form. But you yourself exercises faith like sitting on a chair. You sit on a chair because you believe that the chair can comfort you. You drive a car because you believe it can bring you somewhere. “ ]
I am afraid you use a wrong meaning of the word ‘faith’ : the unwavering belief in something without a scrap of evidence and despite often mountains of contradictions and opposing facts and evidence.
Sitting in a chair does not mean faith but trust in the stability of the material, I can test the possible maximal load, I can sit on it so many times – so gain experience that it was holding my weight Yesterday, I can test for visual structural damage, and using scientific techniques even for internal non visible structure. This has nothing to do with faith !
[Vince says: “ For things that you do not see, you believe that there is a wind because you can feel it, but you do not see it. Now we can cite many more examples of faith. ]
I cannot see the wind ?? I can see it pushing the clouds, smoke, fog, I can verifiable measure the wind speed, I can calculate the flow of molecules, the force, with proper technique the wind power can be harnessed (sailing, windturbines), I can see and feel, estimate and verify the often destructive power of the flow of air molecules in storm damage. All this is verifiable evidence, predictable impacts and scientific measurable : e.g. this is not faith !
[Vince says: “ If you are an atheist, you show your faith by believing that there is no God. “]
Oh dear the old chestnut ‘atheism is just another faith …..
There is no verifiable evidence for the existence of any god, as there is no evidence for the existence of Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, goblins in my garden, and a green aswang riding a flying pink unicorns circling at night over my house. So all these wild imaginations without any scrap of slightest evidence are just rejected as unsupported nonsense – this does not require faith in the absence of all possible imaginations !
And the attributes assigned to the Christian deity e.g. omnipotence, omnibenevolence, omnipresence etc… are logical impossible in itself or as combination.
[Vince says: “ For if I die and then there is no God, I will lose nothing. But if I believe that there is no God, then when I die I found out that there is God, then I lose everything. “]
You have wasted your entire life – the only one you have – to follow a sin focused misery cult, are afraid of dying for the scare to be grilled for all eternity in hellfire in case you interpreted or did something wrong, you wasted countless hours each day in prayer, wasted scarce financial resources in donations to your wealthy church leader, bending 5 times daily to Mecca in honor of Allah, or sacrifices scarce food to Shiva.
And you wasted your life searching for some imagined deity like someone in a the dark basement, at midnight searching desperate for a black cat that isn’t there. All that in the hope and faith for an imagined afterlife for which there is not a scrap of positive evidence but so much counterevidence for the dualism e.g. the existence of an immaterial imagined entity called soul independent from the brain.
And to complete Pascal wager: what if the true god and creator of the universe are the Baal’s or Elohim (gods of the northern tribes of Israel) and not Judean fertility god Yahweh, ‘The Lord’ one of the 70 sons of the most high godfather Elyon, to whom Christians pray ?! Or some other god is in charge like Poseidon, Zeus, Wotan, Osiris, Thor,… any of the thousands of other deities invented from humans ?! What if all their hellfire is waiting for you Vince because you prayed to the nonexistent Yahweh instead of the true god Odin ?!
[Vince says: “ Grace (Coming from God) + Faith (coming from man) = Salvation “]
Nice cherry picking of Bible quotes, but unfortunately the Bible is very self contradicting about salvation (like for many other topics as well). The criteria are ranging from good deeds, following the 10 commandments (different versions !), just faith in Jesus, god unchangeable pre-selection already before birth (independent whatever you do or believe in your life), finally to the book of revelations : 12 tribes of 12,000 Jewish, dead male virgins are the only ones saved !
Here a link with a wrap up of contradicting Bible verses about salvation : http://www.anatheist.net/2008/12/what-must-we-do-…
[syk0saje says: : “ your jump from religion to spirituality “]
Well spirituality and religion are both very loaded terms with lots of different interpretations, but some spiritual worldview like Buddhism, Taoism etc.. are not religions, so spirituality is the broader term. Changing the biggest Christian sect the Roman Catholic Church (with several affiliates itself) just against some other Christian evangelical sect but keeping the faith in Judean fertility god Yahweh and his son Jesus unchanged is not a big leap.
In the Philippines with widespread dominance of the ‘universal church’ e.g. the RCC, there seems to be a distinction between RCC and all others are called ‘Christian denominations’ where the RCC itself is the oldest and biggest Christian sect so all are Christians.
In the book ‘The God virus’ a former evangelical preacher explains quite well how the leader of a modern evangelical Megachurch is scripting his liturgies to keep the flock excited, willing to donate a maximum in the proper mind state e.g. at the right moment of the show …etc… of course much more entertaining showbiz than the boring ancient liturgies of saturated state churches without the need for competition in the marketplace for religions.
And group actions of ‘speaking in tongues’ , hysteric confessions with nervous breakdowns, loaded faith healing sessions, shared singing of more modern melodic gospels, multimedia shows and the like are much more entertaining than millennia old songs and boring sermons about Catholic dogma. So if the marketplace is of free choice and high competition, the RCC is losing their sheep’s.
Christianity is not all about religion. Religion will in no way gets you to heaven. It may be an instrument in understanding the underlying principles of true Christianity, but it's not enough to get to heaven. Our relationship to Christ is what matters.
Biblical teaching says from Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Matt 16:17; Eph 1:19;
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Rom 3:27; Col 1:29;
10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.
To summarize this:
Grace (Coming from God) + Faith (coming from man) = Salvation
Totally different from what Catholic Church teaches:
Grace + Faith + Works = Salvation.
But can we intentionally do the wrong things? Nope. For in verse 10, it simply means that it should only be natural for a man to do "GOOD WORKS".
Concerning "Why do Good People Suffer?" here's a nice article written by my friend: http://www.back-to-bethel.org/why-do-good-people-…
If you prefer to learn more about relationship in Christ, feel free to visit my blog: http://thedisciplers.com and subscribe to my updates. Blessings!!!
here's one simple thing:
religion requires faith.
but faith NEVER requires religion.
it comes as a social corollary quandary. =)
@Tasyo. Yes it NEVER requires religion; but that religious faith produces religion.
Religion is the way you practice your faith.
It's like "You can give without loving, but you cannot love without giving."
Therefore, "You can practice your religion without faith, but you cannot practice faith without practicing religion."
Furthermore, it's not only religion that requires faith. There are many forms of faith. Religious faith is just one form. But you yourself exercises faith like sitting on a chair. You sit on a chair because you believe that the chair can comfort you. You drive a car because you believe it can bring you somewhere.
For things that you do not see, you believe that there is a wind because you can feel it, but you do not see it. Now we can cite many more examples of faith.
But let us talk about religious faith:
If you are an atheist, you show your faith by believing that there is no God.
Now that I am a Christian, I show my faith by believing that there is God.
Faith does exist. It only depends on how you use it and what you believe.
As for me, I would rather believe in God. For if I die and then there is no God, I will lose nothing. But if I believe that there is no God, then when I die I found out that there is God, then I lose everything.
@Vince,
your arguments would make more sense in a world wherein there is only one religion to speak of. but this is a false dichotomy. we live in a world of hundreds if not thousands of religions all claiming that they are the sole path towards salvation.
having grown up in a multi-belief environment, meeting good people of different religions, and having actually practiced different belief systems in my life, the novelty of any single religion just begins to seem like any other religion on the shelf.
Well, just like what Roland_F said, we can quantify which is right and which one is false.
Yes there are probably hundreds of thousands of religious groups and cults nowadays, but certainly, you can test it and quantify which one is false and which one is right.
It may seem like all the same, but if you believe in the Bible (which is not true to the atheist), you can definitely see which one is telling the truth.
I have already done my research, and quite frankly, you're saying exactly the same thing that every cleric, fakir, and pastor has told me over the past few years I've been reading into current events.
That in one way or another, YOUR religion is the true patch.
Cut the sanctimonious rubbish please – we've heard it over, and over, and over again.
Yeah! I love that! 🙂
hi lenore! congratulations on writing your first article! it must have taken a lot of courage to speak out 🙂
i'd also like to commend you on your jump from religion to spirituality. i myself took that leap a few years ago, and then took another leap into something called naturalism. i hope that you can read about it, if you can find the time. 🙂
that's not the neo-nudist lifestyle where you go au naturelle, is it?
kidding 😀
"Far be it from me to tinker with centuries-old Catholic tradition, but truthfully, born-again, or evangelical Church services are way more alive and spiritual at times than our staid, stiff, and sometimes alienating Catholic mass." Lenore R.
The Catholic Mass can really be boring if there is a disconnection between what goes on and their significance. Every word and gesture is a theology. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P40.HTM
And if I may add some personal experience, the Mass really depends on the topic of the homily, and the priest delivering the mass.
I've met my share of priests who had a gift for public speaking, and thankfully, their message was usually relevant to the topic of the events surrounding the community.
If we were unlucky, the priest in charge of the mass on that particular would literally bore us to sleep.
Sometimes, what makes it boring is because those who delivers it does not actually practice it. A real preacher practice what he preaches.
I seldom hear this phrase: "Follow what I preach, but do not follow what I do." This is a statement of false teachers. Teachers who does not really know what they teaches.
@Vince
It depends actually. A teacher may himself be proven a hypocrite, but his teachings may still hold water.
For example, if a teacher smokes but tells me that smoking is unhealthy, that doesn't necessarily debunk his prior assertion. It does make him a hypocrite however XD
Not practicing what he teach is an act of unbecoming.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful" – Seneca
True!
The Catholic Mass is alienating because the people are somewhat alien to it.
I can tell you tradcath, from my own personal experience, that the reason less and less people are going to mass is because priests today make for some very poor homilies.
When a church uses the mass as an opportunity to spread their lies and to demonize the proponents of Reproductive Health, people can only take so much bullshit before realizing that enough is enough.
What stopped me from going to church were the people who go there.
So they attend mass regularly, do they become better people? No. They still commit the same crimes over again.
They just want people to think that they are good people because they go to church or believe in jesus christ. That's what christians say, accept jesus as your savior and be saved. So those are all the requiremments?
just a clarification on the title, it may be a bit misleading. I understood the essay to be more of converting from catholicism to evangelical christianity rather than an actual loss of one's religious beliefs as the core beliefs of theism are still there – namely: answered prayers and salvation through faith in a diety.
So after sufficient time to embrace yourself for critical comments here it comes:
[ “ But one, critical reason I believe is: I’m a Mom. It’s as simple as that. “]
Well women seems to be genetic programmed, to be much more vulnerable and in need for brain soothing by feeling supported, usually company of the own tribe, other women also waiting at home when men’s are out for hunting etc… and an always available, all powerful skydaddy helps a lot to calm down and feel protected.
[ “ or parent who’s ever held a sick child in her arms can attest to how much faith you suddenly realize you have, when faced with the reality that you don’t control anything, and then, having faith in a higher power makes so much sense. “]
It does not make “so much sense” it is just again brain soothing. Possible science and reason e.g. a well trained doctor, researched and tested medicine, medical equipment in a sophisticated hospital have saved much more lives than prayer.
[ “Lord please help me find the money for the milk, diapers (or substitute with: tuition …… “]
And another confirmation of the study ‘The Chronic Dependence of Popular Religiosity upon Dysfunctional
Psychosociological Conditions’ (Gregory Paul, Phil Zuckerman) that religiosity is strongly correlated to an insecure dysfunctional unequal society. In states with good social welfare and healthcare systems, religiosity as brain soothing tool is reduced or almost absent.
[ “ That’s what you get for giving man free will in the first place “]
The myth of ‘free will’ is since a few decades more and more refuted from neuroscience, decisions are made unconscious and the prefrontal cortex (an area called ‘interpreter’ at least from Michael Gazzaniga) is just trying to find an explanation for it. Also the dopamine reward system is deciding often, faster and most times even better than the prefrontal cortex does (see Jonah Lehrer ‘The decisive moment’).
And is the’ free will to sin’ and Yahweh’s wrath really causing earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tsunamis etc… or possible the plate tectonic of the earth crust ?! And what about the suffering of animals or little human babies before their ability to have ‘free will’ ?!.
And please what is with the “free will” of the victims of human atrocities ?! Surprisingly I always hear the theists free will argument always for the perpetrator. What is with victims, for example a little child is beaten for hours and then gang-raped a frequent hobby of Catholic priests around the world. What please is the free will there from the kids ?! And the Holocaust : free will for the Nazi perpetrators – and no free will for the victims – but sure god Yahweh will know that suffering is good and know why his ‘chosen people’ suffered and were killed by the millions.
[ “ I believe, it’s all part of His grand masterplan “]
Of course all the suffering, from genetic copy errors, the hundreds of nasty microbes (viruses, bacteria, protozoa, fungi…), various types of natural disasters plus the human caused atrocities all just on planet earth are all part of the grand masterplan of the creator of the universe. The universe containing hundreds of billions of galaxies, each galaxy containing hundreds of billions of stars like the sun and usually planets, most of the universe absolutely hostile to human species and planet earth created 4.5 billion years ago for the solely purpose of homo sapiens showing up just 200,000 years ago. And we mortal humans are just too stupid to grasp the great masterplan : for the entire universe – or only for a single species e.g. homo sapiens on planet earth 13.72 billion years after the big bang ? And of course if the theist cannot find a proper answer – therefore Yahweh’s masterplan is just beyond human ken.
For the title “losing my religion” I had expected a different article, possibly the change in preference from one Christian sect – out of 33,000 to another Christian sect was meant.
So I hope that was critical enough – based on the request of Innerminds ….
Roland, if I may add, arguing that it must be god in control because said person is not in control is also a classic case of "Argument from Ignorance."
It's not that different from saying "I don't know how this works, so it must be God's doing."
If a God intentionally maligns and hurts his creation to teach us a lesson, when simply telling us how the universal truth (and if God is omnipotent, that SHOULD be possible) is all about would suffice…
…wouldn't that make God sadistic?
Lenora, you don't "teach" your kid about the dangers of burns by prodding them with a red-hot poker, and you certainly don'y teach your teen kids about the hazards of driving by intentionally disconnecting the brakes on their car.
And even if a parent did that, I guarantee you they will be either committed, or jailed.
Do you get what I mean?
Regarding point 1: I just hope you realize that you do have a choice when your child gets sick, and it's not limited to praying. That's what doctors are for after all.
Quite frankly if there was anybody I'd give praise to for helping me and my family when we were ever sick, and when I needed surgery, it would be the dedicated staff of Cardinal Santos.
Regarding point 2:
"A book I read once “Why Bad Things Happen to Good People” (I told you I’ve done extensive research as part of my faith journey) said that God has no control over things that happen. I don’t think so. "
So you assert that God does have control. Here is my question then – if he does have the capability to stop all these atrocities committed in his name, and to prevent these natural disasters from devastating the lives of thousands of innocent people, then why doesn't he?
That does not sound like a compassionate god at all. In fact, I believe the Jesuits who educated me would call that the sin of omision – of doing nothing to prevent a bad situation from happening, when you were fully capable of preventing it. The US, a world superpower drew flak for doing nothing when the Rwanda Genocide took place in 1994.
"Coz, I can’t just credit God for the good things, and not let him be responsible for also the bad things. It’s all or nothing. Yet, I believe, it’s all part of His grand masterplan. That’s an integral part of what faith is. It’s the hope in things not seen. I think, the one flaw of Paradise was that you can’t really be sure if you love someone, if things are too perfect. And so, God, in his infinite love, risked it by giving us the choice, and so we all have to find our way back to Him. Of our own accord."
I'm afraid I can't agree with your point on this either. You claim that even the bad things that happen are part of some "greater plan," and yet all I see are people doing all sorts of horrid things to other people.
I see women having their genitals mutilated because of some old religious tradition. I see people getting blown to pieces and beheaded because the fanatics in their own faith deem them not militant enough. I have read of millions dying from starvation and disease in South Africa.
And you're telling us all these lost, abused, and destroyed lives are part of some "master plan" ?
Who the hell is God? Lelouch?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lelouch_Lamperouge
Regarding point 3.
Let me ask you this:
If you were God, who would you pick to get into heaven:
The followers who only do good because they think it will punch their ticket into paradise, or the follower who simply does good for its own sake, or for the sake of their fellow men?
And secondly, what does get people into heaven?
Before I end up sounding too hostile…
Thanks for the post, Lenore!
I imagine you must have mustered up quite a lot of courage to speak out like this. I'll try to be more civil with the questioning and disagreement on the next salvo.
So, she lost her religion and replaced it with mushy "spirituality?"
Thanks for this article, Lenore. This debunks all accusations that the Filipino Freethinkers are all atheists. But some Filipino Freethinkers are indeed atheists, so better brace yourself for the critical comments (I could almost hear them frantically typing now). But I know you can handle it – you're a big girl. 🙂