Prayer is No Substitute for Actually Doing Shit

At some point you’ve probably read an article somewhere where priests or religious people ask you to pray for a certain cause. I’ve seen bishops ask people to pray for politicians, for impeachment trials, and for victims of various Acts of God, and it annoys me to no end that of all the good things people could do with their two hands, so many people settle for doing nothing more than bowing their heads and closing their eyes instead.

Wouldn’t the world be so much better if everyone who has ever prayed used that time instead to do something good for others? Instead of praying for typhoon victims, for example, donate a shirt or two at the nearest donation box. Instead of praying for god to end corruption, speak out every time you see it rear its head. Instead of praying for the protection of children, push for the prosecution of those who have been raping them in church, and those who’ve been protecting the rapists.

There’s so much we could accomplish as a society if people only stopped wishing that a giant magic hand would come down from the sky and fix things for us, and instead replaced praying for solutions with actually doing shit. Imagine if the “Global Day of Prayer” and the “World Day of Prayer” were replaced with the “Global Day of Actually Doing Shit” and the “World Day of Actually Doing Shit.” It’s quite a stretch that anything like that could ever happen, so let me help your imagination along.

Churches are often looking for ways to encourage actually doing shit among their people. A great way to get the most people actually doing shit is to design an actual shit-doing initiative — doing actual shit on a theme for a set period of time. Actual shit-doing initiatives disciple people to move beyond fix-it shit-doing for their own needs, and instead do actual People-focused shit that seek the power, blessing, and purposes of People.

Many denominations or organizations encourage a week of actually doing shit or develop materials for a 30- or 40-day shit-doing emphasis. A church can develop its own initiative, but there are lots of good ones available, complete with People-based shit-doing guides, sermon helps, and even promotional materials.

That is what it would sound like if this article was trying to do any actual good for the world instead of just trying to get people more people to do absolutely nothing. And here’s another better interpretation of a statement from yearofprayer.org:

The Year of Actually Doing Shit for Children is a project to encourage people everywhere to set aside a special time to actually do shit for children in their community and in the world.

Individuals are asked to commit 15 minutes daily to actually do shit for children. In addition, congregations and communities are invited to gather together for a “Day of Actually Doing Shit for Children” on the second Saturday of each month. “Nothing ever happens until people make a commitment”, says founder Reverend Harriett Walden. “Not everyone can physically intervene in the life of a child, but all children need our actual shit and everyone can actually do shit. In the tradition where I grew up, the actual shit of the elders kept the young people safe until they were old enough to actually do shit for themselves”.

I am of the personal opinion that the world is not short on good intentions. It is action that we are in short supply of, and it is action that we so desperately need. Anyone can pray for abused children, typhoon victims and world peace, but it is the people who get off their knees and actually do shit who make these prayers come true.

One might argue that there’s nothing wrong with imploring a deity to help the world, that a little prayer never hurt anyone, but when well-intentioned people are convinced that clasping their hands and muttering a few words actually accomplishes anything, all that good intention goes to waste. The conscience that would have driven them to action is sated by the delusion that someone up there will do all the work for them.

 

If all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing, and idle hands are the devil’s playground, then prayer is all the world needs to go to hell.

139 comments

  1. partially true. but working on it without prayer is neither complete. there are things that are just beyond human control. well, all of it. and at the end of an accomplished goal, it’s not our human pride to say we did it. but, yah, faith should be coupled with works.

  2. How right you are!!! I had been coerced into accepting the catholic sect at age 6. With all the barrage of dogmas and mythical scriptures stuffed into my skull, Over the years I struggled to extricate myself from the entrapment I was methodically sank into. Now at 6.. err…61, I have every reason to believe that I have the power to be free – some of which are precisely laid out in the above blog. With the biggest stumbling block -prayer-out of the way, I am confident that I am now in the threshold of achieving supreme clarity of mind.

  3. Oh, please. The assumption being made here is that the two (praying and doing shit) are mutually exclusive. You might as well come out and say that you hate the idea of praying in itself, and it definitely seems like you do.

    In any case, prayer, like most other things, is a self-serving practice, and it serves to conditions the mind towards a particular mindset. You could call it a variant of meditation when done correctly. But please, don’t give the “I could’ve used my time praying to help the poor” nonsense. In many cases, it’s a mark of hypocrisy, but that doesn’t justify dismissing the ones that serve the intended purpose.

    I wouldn’t call myself a believer, but I don’t think stating the obvious (for believer and non-believer alike) is going to move anyone, especially since the ones who particularly need to know this won’t stoop down as to read these kinds of articles to begin with.

  4. It would be out of sheer frustration to paint all prayers the same colour. Prayer is not all kneeling around reciting and withdrawn from reality. There are prayers manifested through charities and sacrifices. Some prayers cannot be seen nor done but simply understood. It is not the prayer but the mindset that allows one to be contented and satisfied.

    Religion, from time immemorial, has been striving to condition the human mind. It preaches the idea that to seek material wealth on earth is to forget that the real meaningful wealth is in heaven. Not only the need to bring one’s self out of material poverty is necessary but lacking material possession is accepted as a sign of being closer to the Divine. Imagine the contentment and satisfaction this idea brings to the faithful, especially if one is destitute and poor.

    An emancipated mind dispenses all effort to earn the grace of God on earth while praying that human psyche be freed of religious hypocrisy.

  5. You are really freethinker without understanding the most important SHIT in the kingdom of God and that is the economy of kneeling, of submission, of frustrating ourselves before Great Creator, the Lord Jesus Christ. We work while we pray. Not of the rosary, for i don’t believe it. Read the Bible men, and be like men. I am a pastor helping poors in my place but i share them the gospel at all times and pray for them and with them.

    • Good luck “frustrating” yourself before your Great Creator.

      And while you’re at it, you might want to pray to him to supply you with the correct word you should have used in that expression.

  6. I’m sharing what I posted on Facebook:

    Praying is “talking” to God. I don’t know if your god goes online but…really now, please confine your posts to persuasions or reportage. Otherwise, shall I start sending a “Dear God” letter to newspapers?

    Facebook is just another form of media; it is not a patron saint of whatever.

  7. "Benedict XVI sums it up well in his Easter Vigil Homily 2012: "Today we can illuminate our cities so brightly that the stars of the sky are no longer visible. Is this not an image of the problems caused by our version of enlightenment?"

    – AH YES! Josef Ratzinger, also known as Pope Benedict XVI, author of Crimen Sollicitationis, a document which bears instructions for bishops on how to deal with paedophile priests… To welcome newbies to this site, Godfrey_Buillon's beloved Holy See is the mastermind of hiding these rapists from the law, who ordered the transfer of offenders from one parish to the next without due warning to unsuspecting parents, and refuses to hand over these priests to police authorities. this only tells us that Ratzinger's only concern is shielding the reputation of his beastly organization, with little regard towards victims. usually children.

    NOW THIS IS ENLIGHTENEMENT.

    • What does this have to do with what we were addressing, PRAYER? What drives chaps/dames to such absurd rebuts like these? Is that all you have there madame, pedophiles and offenders? What can we expect as an exchange on prayer from someone who worships their big toe? I suppose this is over Aisha. G'Day!

      • "Benedict XVI sums it up well in his Easter Vigil Homily 2012: "Today we can illuminate our cities so brightly that the stars of the sky are no longer visible. Is this not an image of the problems caused by our version of enlightenment?"

        – correct. what does this have to do with a man like you who looks up to criminals like ratzinger?

  8. [most atheists abandon their belief not because of some logical sequence of reasoning but for some other "baggage" they refuse to deal with or carry… no man who understands what prayer is and what it is for is ever going to be a "used to be" believer.]

    Have you personally interviewed all former believers to arrive at such confident and universal conclusion?

    • Don't need to do that. Read the work of Paul Vitz,Faith of the Fatherless: The Psychology of Atheism. Certainly won't apply in all cases, nothing really does, but it seems to be true for many whom I've known to have left.

      • [Certainly won't apply in all cases, nothing really does, but it seems to be true for many whom I've known to have left.]

        Then I have no disagreement with that statement because it doesn't have the same universal claim as "no man who understands what prayer is and what it is for is ever going to be a "used to be" believer."

        By the way, how many have you known to have stopped believing in prayer and personally heard their reasons?

      • //Don't need to do that. Read the work of Paul Vitz,Faith of the Fatherless: The Psychology of Atheism. //

        In short, you're basing your judgement call of all atheists based on the works of a known conservative Christian. Why should you be taken seriously again?

        • You actually telling me that a work is invalid solely on the basis of an author's political or religious affinity and not the substance of his thesis? So I should also count as rubbish all the articles in the FFT site on the basis of who the author is? Since you're tops on stating logical fallacies I think I'll let you classify your own statement…. cheerio!

  9. //The key phrase mate is "used to be." We need to know why… most atheists abandon their belief not because of some logical sequence of reasoning but for some other "baggage" they refuse to deal with or carry.//

    Said "baggage" was realizing that the Catholic Church harbors sex offenders. And really Godfrey, do you have any sources for this generalization, or are you once again ass-pulling your points?

  10. I think prayer is like a placebo effect for people. Doesn't accomplish what you want, but makes people feel better anyway.

    I don't mouth rote Catholic prayer anymore, more of a combination of positive thinking, being truthful with oneself by spouting all kinds of deeply personal, crazy thoughts, and calming meditation.

    Around high school I fell silent whenever the Apostles' Creed was being intoned: I felt it was bad form with god to mutter something you didn't believe in wholly.

  11. Godfrey_Buillon, I have a question for you:

    WHICH IS MORE POWERFUL, PRAYER OR POSITIVE THINKING?

    As a former Catholic who has been disheartened by the religion's hierarchy, I am at odds with our so-called faith in a God. You see, I am a huge fan of Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking, Michio Kaku, the scientists at CERN, and all those rockstars in physics who are determined to reduce sub-atomic particles into vibrating strings (String Theory), or those who are trying to find out why quantum particles are starting to appear and disappear randomly (as in the Multiverse Theory). This is not a metaphorical question designed to challenge your intellect, but I want to hear you rationalize your own statement:

    "Prayer is the result of an acknowledgement that when our best efforts fail, there is someone who is in control and even if it doesn't seem so there is always a grand plan. "

  12. About 75% of the 94 million Filipinos are either living in poverty or walking the tightrope into poverty.
    They have no hope nor anyone to turn to for deliverance but god. Praying is essential in their lives to ease the pain of hunger, despair and hopelessness. The Philippines has reached a point where the country's resources is so depleted that it cannot provide anymore to sustain the population. The more fortunate ones are able to leave the country and work in foreign lands to support their families back home. The less fortunate ones are left behind with their prayers to god. I see some of you come from well-to-do families and have the luxury of prayer-less lives. If Filipinos will not sympathize nor help to ease the sufferings of your fellow Filipinos, then please do not take away the only thing that your less fortunate brothers and sisters have to ease their sufferings.

    • What is prayer for? Self-satisfaction? Feeling good without doing anything? It may be for something outstandingly noble, but that doesn't change the fact that it does nothing.

      • Hey mate that's why let me repeat that you still don't know what prayer is. The most erroneous notion is thinking that to pray means to do nothing or to pray means to benefit oneself. Just for your benefit, prayer presumes faith so without any faith I can't begin to assume that you'll understand it's benefits. G'day!

        • [prayer presumes faith so without any faith I can't begin to assume that you'll understand it's benefits.]

          Then you and RyanAmparo would just be talking past each other and won't be able to have a coherent discussion. I must remind you that this is a freethought forum where all arguments ought to be based on reason and evidence. If you cannot provide either of the two then I regret to say that you won't be taken seriously here.

          • The reason for prayer is rooted in belief and belief is rooted in faith. The article in question addresses neither and as such treats prayer as a superficial nonsense. So in fact it bothers me not that my responses are not taken seriously since the article itself is something that cannot really be taken seriously too! It's main premise that those who pray don't act is itself a bloody farce. Throughout history, people have found solace in belief and prayer. One cannot put in materialistically quantifiable terms the effects of prayer because there are no direct material effects of prayer that are a hundred percent definable. If you don't get this then you never will. G'Day mate.

          • Don't commit a no true Scotsman fallacy by redefining what a prayer is. A prayer is a prayer by all definitions. There is no such thing as a false prayer and a true prayer in this sense. Acting on it is incidental.

            And to say that "the reason for prayer is rooted in belief and belief is rooted in faith" is simply intellectual treason. You're doing it completely backwards. It's like you're saying that faith begets belief, which begets reason, when in fact it should be reason that comes first before belief.

            "Throughout history, people have found solace in belief and prayer." Still it doesn't change the fact that it does nothing.

            "One cannot put in materialistically quantifiable terms the effects of prayer because there are no direct material effects of prayer that are a hundred percent definable." If so, what significance has prayer for us anyways?

          • That it does nothing is a matter of your personal opinion. Just ask the billions of believers who have passed this world if it has done something for them and you might end up being embarrassed! I would however be surprised if you would ever get an answer that is empirical. The effects of prayer are in the spiritual and emotional both of which are beyond the reach of non-believers. Which leads me again to the conclusion that this article is written by someone who feels he is entitled to everything he asks for and when he doesn't get it behaves like a brat. The article reeks of a kind of desperate disappointment that begs for his prayer to beanswered. Good thing Christianity believes in intercessory prayer which means that I will be praying for that anguish and denial to somehow be reconciled sometime.

          • //That it does nothing is a matter of your personal opinion. Just ask the billions of believers who have passed this world if it has done something for them and you might end up being embarrassed!//

            Argument from popularity, mate?

            //. The effects of prayer are in the spiritual and emotional both of which are beyond the reach of non-believers.//

            As I've said, since you're arguing that the effect of prayer can be found in how it affects a person's emotional state, what makes it any different from a medical placebo?

            //Good thing Christianity believes in intercessory prayer which means that I will be praying for that anguish and denial to somehow be reconciled sometime. //

            There are more important things to be praying over, my friend. Such as asking god to give you a bit more common sense.

          • Post hoc propter hoc fallacy: X happened after Y, therefore Y caused X.

            In your terms, that would be: Change happened after prayer, therefore prayer caused change.

            And I am referring to concrete tangible real change, not the change in personality or perspective that you get after you contemplate.

            Unless you can rationally explain how prayer is the reason why things happen (say praying for rain causes rain), then my point stands.

          • Your point, dear sir, of rationalizing the effects of prayer seems to me to be quite irrational. It is much like measuring the effects of saying to someone that you love them. The effects go far beyond what is apparent and tangible. If you can't understand that , if you can't see beyond your nose, then I must leave you to your own vices. Good day.

          • Here: http://bit.ly/4nLQ74

            That is at least the kind of "change" you can believe in (I could swear this is someone's political slogan).

            Now, of course, that in no way proves God exists. But, while prayer isn't a "substitute for doing shit" (says some guy who does "shit" [since he's probably a member of FF] in defense of a pop-culture movement that, pound for pound –accdng. to Godffery [which is, by the way, verifiably true]– doesn't do "shit".), prayer nevertheless makes people more conduced to doing "shit".

            Really, I shit you not.

          • //Really, I shit you not..//

            Actually you are, you just don't realize it.

            I did a quick read on the some of the ACTUAL studies cited the blog you posted:

            Based on the studies the health benefits are NOT from religiosity itself but the health practices based on their religiosity.
            An atheist who doesn't smoke, drink, eats healthy and exercises regularly will receive the exact same benefits.

            Enstrom JE Health practices and cancer mortality among active California Mormons. Journal of the National Cancer Institute. , 1989; 81(23): 1807-14.

            The mortality pattern of Seventh-Day Adventists (SDAs) in the Netherlands was assessed during a ten-year study period, 1968–1977. Of 522 deceased SDAs the causes of death of 482 could be ascertained. Standardized Mortality Ratios (SMR) for total mortality (SMR = 0,45), cancer (SMR = 0,50) and cardiovascular diseases (SMR = 0,41) as well as for various subgroups differed significantly from the total Dutch population. Mean age at death as well as life-expectation at baptism were significantly higher in SDAs, both in males and females, as compared with Dutch males and females.

            A health survey among a sample of the total SDA population and a group of ‘friend’ controls was done in order to try to explain the differences in mortality pattern and life expectancy. It is concluded that evidence was found for the thesis that abstinence from cigarette smoking is the main factor explaining the low mortality from ischaemic heart diseases among SDAs, while presumably an appropriate (prudent) diet confers additional benefit for example on colon cancer mortality.

            Berkel, J. & de Waard, F.(1983)

            A more detailed abstract on the studies you posted. It's more about lifestyle not religiosity; rather lifestyle based on their religiosity.
            Religiously active Mormons in California are a nonsmoking population with unusually low risk for cancer. This finding is based on the results of our 1979 questionnaire survey of life-style and the 8-year (1980-1987) follow-up of mortality among 5,231 Mormon high priests and 4,613 wives 25-99 years of age. Our study, which is the first prospective cohort study of Mormons, shows low standardized mortality ratios (SMRs) for this population, relative to those for whites in the general population in the United States, which are defined as 100. The SMRs for males are 47 for all cancers, 52 for cardiovascular diseases, and 47 for all causes; the SMRs for females are 72 for all cancers, 64 for cardiovascular diseases, and 66 for all causes. For middle-aged high priests adhering to three health practices (never smoking cigarettes, engaging in regular physical activity, and getting proper sleep), the SMRs are 34 for all cancers, 14 for cardiovascular diseases, and 22 for all causes. These results have been largely replicated in an active Mormon-like subgroup (white nonsmokers attending church weekly) from a representative sample of residents of Alameda County, CA. Our findings confirm and expand on previous descriptive studies of Mormons and demonstrate how these results can be generalized.
            PMID: 2585528 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]

          • I call cherry picking and just being lazy for not bothering to read the entire studies. Miguel you just fell for the one of the many common pitfalls of a common fundamentalist trying a debate on empirical observations.

          • Basti / Twin,

            The observably flawed manner by which Ryan Amparo got to his conclusions was something I thought important to point out.

            Needless to say, I was expecting someone to make the kind of response you just did, so I was careful to call it the kind of "change" a naturalist could believe in.

            Obviously the health benefits would be based on the religious practice; Obviously, because of how the article frames the discussion in, that's what someone in my place would attempt to show, because obviously we're talking about prayer and "doing shit", and not the broader 'belief' in a deity.

            Don't make problems where none exist. What I said was simple enough; praying, while not a substitute for doing shit, conduces people to do more shit. That's it. Which is why you'll find that the people doing the most shit are the people who in fact do pray.

            Can it on occasion be harmful? Of course. We can get imaginative and think of a way it could be. But that's more the exception than the rule –like saying exercise can on occasion be harmful.

            So your counter quite clearly misses it's mark.

          • //But that's more the exception than the rule –like saying exercise can on occasion be harmful.//

            Perhaps this is just me nitpicking, but as an avid runner and a practitioner of boxing and arnis, I would really like to know why you think comparing exercise with prayer is in any way a good analogy.

            Praying doesn't improve my cardio or teach me how to defend myself in a mugging.

            My points is that there is a large body of work supporting the benefits of exercise to the human body. Attempts to prove the efficacy of prayers in improving health, on the other hand, are rather shabby.
            http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/

            I also note that all of the sources your article cited are pre-21st century. Can you cite more contemporary sources?

          • What I was actually comparing wasn't exercise and prayer per se, but the ways in which each activity can produce effects more reasonably considered exceptions to the rule. They are therefore analogous in that sense.

            There are many studies that show prayer results in better health, well-being and so forth. Prayer, in case you don't know, is a form of meditation. Of course you can say, however, that we can acquire the same benefits by doing other things –like practicing focusing the mind with concentration, or gaining more empathy by meditating on 'love' or what have you– but that's beside the point since here I didn't set out to prove God exists but to show that prayer conduces people to doing shit.

            Here's one contemporary source : http://tinyurl.com/6o5yd3z

            excerpt: "A Duke study of a group of 4,000 people over age 64 found that those who prayed regularly had significantly lower blood pressure than those who prayed intermittently. At Dartmouth Medical Center, one of the best predictors of survival among 232 heart patients was the degree to which they drew comfort from prayer. In studies at several medical centers, prayer had been shown to speed recovery from depression, stroke, hip surgery, rheumatoid arthritis, heart attacks, bypass surgery, and alcoholism."

          • //So your counter quite clearly misses it's mark.//

            Actually it did, bulls eye in fact. I just pointed out you cherry-picked and clearly didnt read the entirety of the studies.

            now you are trying to avoid being called out, by shifting topics: ie. exercise can be bad and prayer as a source of comfort. two things not discussed in the studies you cited.

            ahh dealing with the likes of you is always fun, but later on mind-numbing

            and i'm not here to debate, just to point out the obvious inconsistencies in your argument

          • You've just proven my point that you missed the point by summarizing my argument thusly:

            "exercise can be bad and prayer as a source of comfort."

            And I'm "shifting topics" he says. Right. You didn't even understand my argument, yet you go on a rant as though you've been able to refute it.

          • and i pointed out you clearly didn't understand the studies you posted and arrogantly saying "I shit you not"

            so from effectiveness of prayer to phyisical activities of religious people to risks of exercise to prayer as a placebo effect., you are all over the place.

            Miguel please focus you sound like a certain cardidad me and twin_skies are know.

          • What the hell is a cardidad?

            Lol, and what in the world is this below? :

            "so from effectiveness of prayer to phyisical activities of religious people to risks of exercise to prayer as a placebo effect., you are all over the place. "

            You're that dishonest aren't you? You get snippets of your own summation of my argument and mash them together as if there was no train of thought. That can either be funny or stupid of you –or both actually. Yeah, maybe both.

          • //That can either be funny or stupid of you –or both actually. Yeah, maybe both.//

            ooh ad hominems now. reality sounds stupid to you guys to begin with anyways, i'll leave it at that 😉

            silly miggy. i read the studies on that little link you provided, nothing in there proves prayer does actual shit.

            As i said i just pointed out the studies you provided and how it does not point out prayer works for sick people. and from one of your arguments it seems you believe religious people who exercise are healthier than non-religious people who exercise just because of prayer.

            you are also called out on using very old studies. welcome to the 21st century.

            nice try weaseling out though.. not going to work.

          • One would think someone who constantly uses ad hominems against his opponents would forego accusations of ad hominem against them.

            You'd also think one who implies he's mastered "debate terminologies" would also know what adhominem means; saying what you did was stupid isn't an ad hominem, saying you're stupid to discredit your argument would be.

            He says: " it seems you believe religious people who exercise are healthier than non-religious people who exercise just because of prayer. "

            — I never said anything of this sort. You are so incompetent.

          • //What I was actually comparing wasn't exercise and prayer per se, but the ways in which each activity can produce effects more reasonably considered exceptions to the rule. They are therefore analogous in that sense. //

            and yet the articles you posted had nothing to do with prayer, but the healthy lifestyles of the subjects (mormon and adventists)

            so we conclude, you posted non-sequitur articles.

          • "and yet the articles you posted had nothing to do with prayer, but the healthy lifestyles of the subjects (mormon and adventists) "

            — Don't narrow your response to just the articles I linked to because you're too lazy or ill-equipped to look at and refute the bigger argument. And, you even missed the last bunch of weblinks I gave which talks specifically of prayer. I was giving an example of how prayer conduces to better health and well-being, not that God exists or that he intervenes because of prayer.

            "so we conclude, you posted non-sequitur articles."

            –Congratulations on having been able to sneak in some latin words in the hope of convincing others of your hard-won education.

          • not my fault if you are not aware of debate terminologies. look it up google is your friend. and an fyi this is a debate thread. unless you failed to interpret intensedebate?

            just to sum it up, the discussion is the effectiveness of prayer.

            one of your rebuttal: the effectiveness of the healthy lifestyle of religious people. and telling us off that you shit us not. 🙂

            as i said you did not bother reading the studies posted in your link. i did, however and I will call you out on it.

          • Oh I'm not "aware of debate terminologies", oh that's it! (lol, he's trying to convince us again, it seems.)

            Oh telling someone you 'shit him not' is "telling [him] off" –if he were to be believed.

            He doesn't even know the meaning of oft used catchphrases. And it is probably to be expected, given that, despite it having been expressly pointed out to him, he's still under the impression that his "rebuttal" and use of "debate terminologies" has anything to do with what I was arguing.

            I'll wager his next response will yet again be eliciting another open mouthed expression of incredulity.

          • hmm maybe i can add more sesquipedalian loquaciousness into the mix.

            cute how simply calling you out on your cherry-picking and laziness devolves this debate to comedy 😉

            now we are understand the terminology of i shit you not! let's see what the experts at urban dictionary have to say:
            <a href="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I” target=”_blank”>www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I shit%…

            it means you shit us not: prayer does make us healthier… despite you know proper diet, exercise and not drinking & smoking, i'm sure they had something to do with those religious people being healthy.

          • And all of that magically validates your interpretation of the phrase. Right. Nevermind that you even posted a non-working link –unless you meant for us to get the impression 'shit you not' means a lot of other weird things. Well, actually it won't be surprising if that's what you intended; everything you've said thus far doesn't really inspire confidence in your ability to react objectively.

          • On your article also:

            – It's better than nothing (i.e. the placebo effect): I'd be remiss in my reporting if I didn't say that some of the benefits derived from prayer can simply be accounted for because the person feels like it's helping, whether it's physiologically helping or not. Placebo effects have been shown to account for 70 percent of the benefit in some procedures. My stance here is that thinking you're doing something to help yourself is a big part of prayer anyway.

            For personal benefits prayer does works just as well as placebos, meditations and positive thinking.

            As for praying for others… that has been proven to do just as much as… well doing nothing
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercess

          • This isn't even a sensible reaction to what I said.

            Sine you are at least theoretically capable of learning, I'll repeat my actual argument. Copy pasted from my previous post:

            There are many studies that show prayer results in better health, well-being and so forth. Prayer, in case you don't know, is a form of meditation. Of course you can say, however, that we can acquire the same benefits by doing other things –like practicing focusing the mind with concentration, or gaining more empathy by meditating on 'love' or what have you– but that's beside the point since here I didn't set out to prove God exists but to show that prayer conduces people to doing shit.

          • and as one conclusion in your citation: placebo. I do not disagree praying for one's self does help since it sets up a positive state of mind, which meditation and other forms of stress relief does too anyway.

            praying for others on the other-hand has been proven to do just as much as doing nothing.

            unless you want to keep ignoring the studies in the link i posted.

          • He says:

            "I do not disagree praying for one's self does help since it sets up a positive state of mind, which meditation and other forms of stress relief does too anyway."

            Now he get's it. Does he realize though that this was the extent of my argument? No. Why? Because, probably, as with everything, he starts off with sophomoric ill-temperament as a way to impress.

            But what have we here? He now wants to make it seem like I was arguing "praying for others" works, thus making him successful in his "rebuttal" and use of "debate terminologies". The competent reader would have already noticed the ground shifting.

            I can rest assured the unbiased reasonable thinking person going through our exchange will find every response you've just made, well, shall we say, moronic.

          • I think he was saying the "change" thingy isn't necessarily the kind you think –or what you try to argue– it should be.

            And, actually, prayer does create "concrete and tangible real change", unless you discount health effects, well-being and so forth as "concrete and tangible". It would be odd if you did, however.

            And, whether you are aware of it or not, you make the man's point –that you're missing the point– by asking this: "Unless you can rationally explain how prayer is the reason why things happen (say praying for rain causes rain), then my point stands."

            That's precisely what he's arguing prayer is not.

          • //Throughout history, people have found solace in belief and prayer.//

            So it's a security blanket. Is that even a proper defense?

          • //To one who lacks any spiritual orientation that's probably the best one can describe it mate! //

            Spouting new-age, touchie-feelie rubbish isn't the way to go if you're trying to convince us, mate. You're sounding less like a Catholic apologist, and more like a hippie.

          • Call me what you want doesn't matter. Your self-contradiction is showing. Can't convince anyone, it's God's grace really. But if you're not searching you won't find!

          • //Can't convince anyone, it's God's grace really. But if you're not searching you won't find! //

            Answering with a non-answer. Quaint.

          • //To one who lacks any spiritual orientation that's probably the best one can describe it mate! //

            I guess it's too much to ask of cognitive ability from those who don't have it. You have my sympathies for your willfull loss.

          • I suppose that's the bloody extent of an atheists understanding of prayer, can't argue with. It's much like teaching a robot what it means to fall in love.

          • Most if not all atheists here used to be Christians who were even more devout than your average "Christian." So your analogy about teaching a robot what it means to fall in love is not applicable. The correct analogy would be, explaining prayer to the atheists here is like explaining love to a robot who used to be human. Of course this robot would know what it's like to fall in love.

          • My 13-year old daughter read your reply and asked me if your mentally challenged somehow… not my reply you see but hers. Gave her a bit of a word or two about charity after it made me laugh. What does that say about your response? If I had my way, I would just ask you… SHOW ME HOW!

          • //My 13-year old daughter read your reply and asked me if your mentally challenged somehow… not my reply you see but hers. //

            So you're making under-aged kids fight your battles now?

            //If I had my way, I would just ask you… SHOW ME HOW! //

            Ooooh, the big, strong man is using all caps on me. What's a wee little tyke like me to do?

          • So you're making under-aged kids fight your battles now?shows ya where you're at eh laddie?

          • Twin_Skies,

            It's no wonder why his daughter is acting like a bully: we are seeing the fruit that came straight from its tree. And she's 13, he says? Well, that should BullyPolice.org a heads up! She has some potential.

            With love and respect,
            Aisha

        • //Just for your benefit, prayer presumes faith so without any faith I can't begin to assume that you'll understand it's benefits. //

          You're working under the false assumption that we don't know where people who do pray are coming from. A good portion of FF's members are former Christians and Catholics, so yes, I'd like to think we have a pretty good grasp of what it means to pray with faith. At least before we realized that it's only rationalizing one's right to say some repetitive mantra without looking silly.

          • Prayer is rooted in faith and belief. If you've lost your faith and belief then you lose the core of what it means to pray. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi! What to me is a farce is the false assumption that prayer means not to act (perhaps that is why it has lost its meaning to you and others). So to define what prayer is what it does in purely material terms is idiotic. it's like explaining what chocolate tastes like without actually tasting it!

          • //Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi! What to me is a farce is the false assumption that prayer means not to act (perhaps that is why it has lost its meaning to you and others).//

            Tell that to your brethren, please.
            http://whatstheharm.net/faithhealing.html

            //So to define what prayer is what it does in purely material terms is idiotic. it's like explaining what chocolate tastes like without actually tasting it! //

            Poor analogy. One can explain how white chocolate tastes like through the way its chemical composition reacts with the biochemical processes of the tastebuds.

            And frankly, trying to justify that prayer can't be explain in purely material terms is a cop-out – it's a physical act much like anything else, and saying it cannot be explained is special pleading.

            Courtier's Reply, anyone?

          • Actually this article is the cop-out. Prayer is a physical act externally but I can't begin to expect you to understand its spiritual effects nor trying to explain the material effects of it. So it basically comes on as a kind of bloody whining.

          • //Prayer is a physical act externally but I can't begin to expect you to understand its spiritual effects nor trying to explain the material effects of it.//

            Courtier's reply 😉

          • Hey mate, that would be true if CAtholics really didn't act enough but in truth and pound for pound or in your case, peso for peso, Christians/Catholics give and do much more for the poor and for charity than any other group in the world, atheists and secularists included… and still find time to pray on top of that!

          • his logic and line of reasoning is reminiscent of my favorite catholic apologist.

            in this website.

            i wonder………..

          • If prayer to you is repeating words without acting on it, then that's not prayer, that's laziness. Prayer is the result of an acknowledgement that when our best efforts fail, there is someone who is in control and even if it doesn't seem so there is always a grand plan. What prayer isn't is wishing and what God isn't is a fairy godmother.

          • //Prayer is the result of an acknowledgement that when our best efforts fail, there is someone who is in control and even if it doesn't seem so there is always a grand plan.//

            In the end, it's delusion.

          • //. Prayer is the result of an acknowledgement that when our best efforts fail, there is someone who is in control and even if it doesn't seem so there is always a grand plan.//

            We pinoys have a phrase for this: "Bahala na sa diyos."

          • Sorry mate but what you sayis I believe called Filipino folk religiosity and not authentic Christian prayer. I have met many Filipinos who are far from your caricature of a praying person. Would be nice if you could truly have a better grasp of these things before you answer. G'day

          • Thanks Bloke but seriously you're correcting my spelling? Could it be that I intended that because someone else did get that name? Let me give you some advice, in debate fora, it is unwise and shallow to correct grammar and spelling because it shows a kind of, pardon my bluntness eh, empty-headedness. Cheers!

          • "Let me give you some advice, in debate fora, it is unwise and shallow to correct grammar and spelling because it shows a kind of, pardon my bluntness eh, empty-headedness. Cheers! "

            – ego (bull's eye hit!)

          • Indeed he has 🙁
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfrey_of_Bouillon

            Godfrey, you're obviously using the namesake of a Frankish Knight. If that is the case, you should be trying to emulate a Germanic accent, instead of that atrocity of a british accent you are currently using to torture us with.

            If you're going to post under a fake account, at least do you bloody homework.

          • //Sorry mate but what you sayis I believe called Filipino folk religiosity and not authentic Christian prayer. I have met many Filipinos who are far from your caricature of a praying person.//

            No true scotsman fallacy.

          • //Perhaps its just that you can't make the distinction but I don't blame you. //

            Or perhaps you're just evading the points being made. Seriously, that faux-british accent isn't helping your case, either.

          • Godfrey_Buillon, I have a question for you:

            WHICH IS MORE POWERFUL, PRAYER OR POSITIVE THINKING?

            As a former Catholic who has been disheartened by the religion's hierarchy, I am at odds with our so-called faith in a God. You see, I am a huge fan of Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking, Michio Kaku, the scientists at CERN, and all those rockstars in physics who are determined to reduce sub-atomic particles into vibrating strings (String Theory), or those who are trying to find out why quantum particles are starting to appear and disappear randomly (as in the Multiverse Theory). This is not a metaphorical question designed to challenge your intellect, but I want to hear you rationalize your own statement:

            "Prayer is the result of an acknowledgement that when our best efforts fail, there is someone who is in control and even if it doesn't seem so there is always a grand plan. "

          • It's quite funny how people praise string theory, multiverses, neo-cosmology, quantum mechanics etc when this can't answer one basis question: why do particles that are said to appear and disappears follow that particular quantum law? Where did that quantum law originate from? It does not address the issue of ex nihilo nihil fit. It appears that the “nothing” physicists talk about is just an empty nothing and not a non- existent nothing. Back to square one lassie.

          • when science tries to find out answers, it gives out evidence of some external force that can be observed, measured, quantified, documented that contributes to the experience of being human. when subatomic particles appear and disappear at random, ur god or whoever (as claimed by religious zealots) is out of the question, and

            OUT OF THE EQUATION.

          • Zealot now am I? I don't expect science to explain God anymore than you should expect science to ever explain origin from non-existence.At least as a Christian I recognize and appreciate the limits of science and it is this recognition that has allowed Christians to make science progress over the last thousand years. The University system, scientific method, planetary motion and even the big bang cosmology was proposed by a priest! Lassie, you seem to make science your god… so back to you, a science zealot!

          • “Science has no limits”… hahaha that's not a very scientific statement, is it? Can I use your statement as an example of where science worship and zealotry can lead to?

          • I've been reading Holy Blood, Holy Grail by Baigent, Lincoln, and Leigh, and it's no surprise that ur username of choice is as outdated as ur world views. A Frankish knight who was the savior of Jerusalem from the years 1096-1100 AD, must have had taken a great many blows to the head, and therefore, I don't think u need to debate so much more. Go see a neurologist and find out what a 21st century doctor's diagnosis is. Pity….

          • My poor woman you actually contributed to their coffers by falling for their fictional work and worst of all you actually believe it! Bet your a Dan Brown fan as well… That speaks a pile about your discerning intellect. It's probably a good bedtime story so sweet dreams Madame!

          • "At least as a Christian I recognize and appreciate the limits of science and it is this recognition that has allowed Christians to make science progress over the last thousand years. The University system, scientific method, planetary motion and even the big bang cosmology was proposed by a priest! " – Godfrey_Buillon

            – Let me see. First, they held Galileo Galilei under house arrest when he proposed that the earth revolved around the sun, and not the other way around. Next, they put a price on Charles Darwin's head since he presented his theory of Natural Selection, thereby reducing Creationism as a fairytale. Isaac Newton kept his true religious beliefs secret, for fear of persecution, until literally his dying day.

            "so back to you, a science zealot! " – – Godfrey_Buillon

            – well at least none of us here is acting like a defeated, crybaby like you. yes, i am a PROUD SCIENCE ZEALOT.

          • "The University system, scientific method, planetary motion and even the big bang cosmology was proposed by a priest!"

            – yeah right, priests who also formed the INQUISITION, priests who authored the MALLEUS MALEFICARUM (Heinrich Krammer & Jacob Sprenger), priests who signed the final DEATH SENTENCE of my country's national hero (Bernardino Nozaleda), priests who helped NAZI MURDERERS escape to Argentina after the holocaust (Alois Hudal), and before I forget, priests who PROTECT PEDOPHILES under their wing (Karol Józef Wojtyła & Josef Ratzinger).

            – woooohhh…. this is so much fun! 😉

          • when running out of proper arguments, YOU TURN YOUR BACK ON FACTS. when confronted by facts, YOU RESORT TO BULLYING. when successfully bullying others, YOU END UP WITH NOTHING.

            well, keep going.

          • And you call referring to the clergy abuse as an argument to everything wrong about belief… That's argument? Really? seriously? G'day

          • Pls don't make the mistake of thinking that Christians – Catholics specifically, are neither optimists nor doers. If we look at history we won't see a conflict between prayer, optimism and acting.The best argument for prayer can be found inSaints who did all three effectively and changed the world! The difference is that the Christian optimism goes beyond mere “positive thinking” because it is rooted in hope in Christ whereas the latter is rooted solely on the self.

          • for a person who uses the name of a medieval french knight, why am i not surprised? haha. saints, jesus christ, all that dung…

            as a freethinker, i am open to the power of the human mind. i shun at the thought of worshipping a (mythical) Jewish guy who the Romans crucified 2,000 years ago, whose vicar is doing a sucky job. crimen sollicitationis, anyone?

            and as for ur "If we look at history " —> The 21st century world is changed by experiments, actions, and explorations. NOT SAINTS.

          • I have read much about the Filipino Freerthinker's method of ad absurdum and ad hominem argumentation from previous posters. I must say that it's disappointing and lackluster to read a “scientific” Philipina resort to the same. The changes of the 21st century stands on the shoulders of giants… Christian giants who saw order in the universe. G'day!

          • Contrare madame, she who has no idea of whence they came is apt to repeat the errors of the past! Christianity is undoubtedly the catalyst of scientific thought and you can deny it all you want but that would be a life lived as a fib. Now that is what is embarrassing!

          • "Christianity is undoubtedly the catalyst of scientific thought…"

            – and what of the Galileo Affair? NOW THAT IS EMBARASSING!

          • ur like a 50-year old macho man who claims to be the champion of catholicism, yet regresses to his pre-school stage whenever confronted by historical facts. and is that how you attack me, stating ur personal opinions to my face? pity…

          • "I must say that it's disappointing and lackluster to read a "scientific" Philipina resort to the same. "

            – spoken like a hypocrite. good job!

          • You strike me as someone who has a lot of anger and bitterness being channelled towards Christianity! I hope one day you can be at peace with God and yourself. Certainly we will pray for that.

          • "I hope one day you can be at peace with God and yourself. Certainly we will pray for that. "

            – u dont assume to speak in behalf of a god, dont you? ur starting to sound so morally corrupt.

          • "I hope one day you can be at peace with God and yourself. Certainly we will pray for that."

            – praying? okay. and while you're at it, why dont you also pray for the following? i'll enumerate:

            1. The 16,324 individuals who have alleged that they were abused as minors by priests in the US alone.
            2. The 6,115 clerics "not implausibly" and "credibly" accused in 1950-2011 of sexually abusing minors.
            3. And of course SNAP, the priest abuse survivor’s network, that filed a comprehensive criminal complaint with the International Criminal Court (ICC) in the Netherlands of crimes against humanity, alleging a worldwide priest child abuse cover-up in the Catholic Church, that they may they be served justice.

            – Now tell me, WHAT DOES YOUR GOD SAY TO THIS? And if ur going to spit in the face of secularism, try arguing with these people:
            http://www.vatileaks.com/ http://www.bishop-accountability.org/

  13. Okay so this is a freethinker site and I might sound “hypocritical” if I say I do pray. But why does it seem like the article makes a generalization that people who pray do nothing but pray. I pray AND I actually do something. For me, those two complement each other so neither one impedes the other.

    • Just as spending time on your knees lessens the time you spend on your feet, the more you pray lessens the time you actually do shit. (Unless you pray WHILE doing shit.)

      • How can you say that the time spent on praying has a direct bearing on actually doing? For me, praying only cuts my mealtimes and leisurely activities and even sleeptime when it’s a serious volunteer work. This means taking vitamins regularly and keeping myself healthy to be able to pray and at the same time take action.

  14. On the bright side, now we can tell religious people to simply pray for, say, the RH bill to flop.

    While all the people with sense do the shit that is needed to get it passed. Win, win?

  15. Up until now, I still don't know what to make out of each and every Sunday mass whenever they call us out to kneel, bow our heads and pray that God will stick his hand and dump this bill into the nearest black hole. Imagine yourself being any one of the following: a single mom during mass who losing ur virginity during ur teenage years and smacked urself in the head saying, "I think I might have needed this bill when I hit puberty….", or being a parent to 7-8 children and not wanting more kids to feed, or simply being a married couple who are having a smokin' hot sex life with the use of pills? You are a Catholic who does good deeds to society, but you're simply torn apart by the hierarchy who demands its followers to follow their doctrine. Will God condemn you for it? Or should you stop hearing mass altogether? At least I'm being honest.

  16. I was so happy to read Aisha’s comment that I had to comment myself. Every sunday I do the same thing, although I look at everyone else instead of the priest. I wonder how many of those people actually believe in what they’re reading off of the LED board, and how many are just mouthing the words just because they don’t want others to think that they’re “immoral”.

    It makes me want to wear a huge purple ribbon, although i keep forgetting to buy one.

  17. My defense was that praying, it seems, has become an avenue to reduce our personal God to our own agenda. AND WHAT IF I SUPPORT THE RH BILL BUT STILL BELIEVE IN GOD, would that make me a bad person? Maybe, at least by roman catholic standards. Praying against this bill is a huge contradiction, but I will give the roman catholic church the benefit of the doubt that maybe news and current events is not their thing, since statistics have shown that 76% of filipino catholics agree with the RH Bill. Of all the churchgoers on that fateful Sunday, I don't belive I was alone in my conviction. I was just alone in my preference not to kneel down. Rebellious me… And my mom says I'm immoral. Okay.

  18. I may not be a devout catholic these days, however, I still attend mass with my parents out of deep respect for my folks. One time, I got a verbal lashing from my momma when she noticed that I didn't get down on my knees when the priest asked us to pray for the death of the RH Bill. She observed that I was looking intently at the old man dressed in white, my eyebrows raised in indignation. She said: "Luhod nalang kay naa bitaw ta sa simbahan…" (Kneel down. We're inside church premises.)

    I didn't.

  19. If there was one thing that prayer can do it's to calm the mind and set it straight, but shit to be done and realized is shit to be done in real life not in the imaginary realm that people place in their heads.

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